Author Topic: sustrans: you what?  (Read 17817 times)

Zoidburg

Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #25 on: 27 May, 2009, 06:38:54 pm »
Sustrans quest!

You have come upon a clearing in the woods...

What would you like to do next?

1 - Take the broken glass and used condom strewn cyclepath through the Forest Of Fear?

2 - Go left instead and cross the concrete wastelands of the Industrial Estate Of Despair?

You have chosen 1!

Loading, please wait...







simonp

Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #26 on: 27 May, 2009, 06:43:41 pm »
You are lost.

There is a grue here.

What next?

Panoramix

  • .--. .- -. --- .-. .- -- .. -..-
  • Suus cuique crepitus bene olet
    • Some routes
Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #27 on: 27 May, 2009, 06:49:38 pm »
Since I use the Bristol to Bath cyclepath between Bitton and Bath on a daily basis, on 25mm tyres and doing 30ish km/h I think that this is a bit unfair.
Chief cat entertainer.

Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #28 on: 27 May, 2009, 07:36:06 pm »
"Iconic long distance rides that the National Cycle Network is famous for"


Yep - a long distance ride to get to the town 10miles away.  ;)

In seriousness, Sustrans is about a whole lot more than the National Cycle Network.

Only about 1/5 of the NCN is on cyclepaths, and I believe that over half of these are tarmac.

Sustrans owns very little of the route. It is by negotiation with councils and landowners. Many landowners will not want access and many do not want tarmac paths across their land. It is not often Sustrans choice as to the condition of the surface or the direction the route takes.

Signing: Signs should be put in by the Highways agency - My section of the NCN needs around 60 signs - the Highways agence put in 9. Two of which were wrong. Most of the signs are put in and maintained by volenteers as 'temporary signage'.

There are a lot of stupididly routed, badly surfaced trails out there, but there are some gems that give communities a shorter, safer cycling or walking route that previously did not excist.
If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is...

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #29 on: 27 May, 2009, 07:48:46 pm »
Since I use the Bristol to Bath cyclepath between Bitton and Bath on a daily basis, on 25mm tyres and doing 30ish km/h I think that this is a bit unfair.

The Bristol to Bath path (their first) is the exception that proves the rule.  If they were all like that it would be fine.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #30 on: 27 May, 2009, 09:46:07 pm »
I use bits of NCN and regional routes quite often. I'm not sure any of it is sustrans built though (as they follow existing roads - but I don't know that). The points above about being unable to ride two abreast safely mostly apply, but I rarely ride with anyone else so that's no problem.  :P

The path between Brighton and Lewes has two good features:
 - Lots of people use it at the Brighton end, where most of it is painted on an A road. Drivers get to see lots of bikes being ridden to work.
 - Between Falmer and Lewes it becomes shared use path. A few obstacles, but much more pleasant than being in with the 70mph traffic alongside (and flatter than going over Ditching beacon, which is the alternative!). I'm happy to ride this bit at night at a (for me) reasonable pace, so it's not so bad.

The path along the coast I use, but is much less coherent - bits of shared use, bits of road (some with a marked area, some just road), some very roughly surfaced track. The rough bits I don't bother with as they don't lead to anything better - if I want off-road I'll go off-road properly. I quite like riding by the sea of an evening, so I'm not about to avoid the bits that are perfectly serviceable. I can imagine that having a line on a map might get people to give it a go, but the bittyess and need to look for signs isn't ideal - I wouldn't want to set off without a map if I didn't know the route already.

Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #31 on: 27 May, 2009, 10:10:12 pm »
Since I use the Bristol to Bath cyclepath between Bitton and Bath on a daily basis, on 25mm tyres and doing 30ish km/h I think that this is a bit unfair.

The Bristol to Bath path (their first) is the exception that proves the rule.  If they were all like that it would be fine.

My understanding is that the Bristol to Bath (bearing in mind they are based in Bristol?) is their flagship route, and almost stands alone in its design and implementation.

I have ridden / walked much of the NCN.  The Bristol to Bath route is one I intend to visit at some point to see how different it is to the rest of the NCN.

simonp

Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #32 on: 27 May, 2009, 10:46:13 pm »
I used to regularly cycle to work via some bits of NCN route.

These days I'm more likely to take the direct route through town, which is shorter and faster.

Things I like about the NCN route: the bit beside the river.

Things I like about the direct route: it's shorter, and I don't feel that I've been forced into a ghetto.

What I don't like about the NCN route: to get to the truly away from road nice route, I have to cycle up Airport Way.  This has a shared use pavement.  As it's past an airport, driveways aren't a problem.  But crossing the roundabout at the north end is a problem, because you are crossing the path of vehicles leaving the roundabout to get to the island, and then of those joining to get from the island to the far side.  And if you cycle on the 60mph road then you get the abuse.  Once you get to the P&R site the route ducks through there, so blind corners & junctions galore.  Then you get a nice section of path alongside a field, away from the road.  On the problem is the dogs, and their poo, and the occasional moped.  Into a housing estate and over some speed humps, then cross Ditton Lane where there's a ped crossing (not a toucan or any other cycle crossing, a ped crossing) to access the next part of the route, which is a bit narrow.  Then you have a junction with another part of the cycle route, with poor visibility followed by a very twisty section with poor sight lines, and then out onto the nice part of the path.  It doesn't last though because you have to negotiate a very narrow bridge which is built out under the railway bridge over the river, with poor sight lines, then again onto a proper section of path but watch out for dogs running out in front of you as you cross a cattle grid again with zero visibility that they are coming.  Then back onto the roads, crappy mini roundabout, drivers overtaking in stupid places, arrive at work quite fed up.  On the way home the same in reverse, but add that if it's dark because the Airport Way cycle path is only on one side, you are blinded by the car head lights and can't see a fucking thing.

Things I don't like about the direct route.  Well, actually, it's mostly cycle facilities that are the problem again.  Narrow cycle lanes with stupid islands that you have to duck to the left of (into a badly maintained bypass) or to the right of (risking abuse and/or worse).  Then a quite long stretch of actual road, but the drivers are impatient so it doesn't get much better, then a long stretch of non-mandatory cycle lane next to parked cars, i.e. stupid place to cycle, but cycling outside the lane risks abuse and/or worse.  Then normal roads where it's not too bad apart from approaching the Chesterton Rd/Liz Way junction where drivers seem to think it's mandatory to cut you up.

When I write it down it's clear that the NCN route has more design faults. I foolishly decided to cycle home that way last month after a bad day at work, when I wanted to chill out, but the combination of walkers, joggers, idiots on bikes, and a pissed off me, was pretty toxic.



rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #33 on: 28 May, 2009, 06:39:59 am »
Since I use the Bristol to Bath cyclepath between Bitton and Bath on a daily basis, on 25mm tyres and doing 30ish km/h I think that this is a bit unfair.

The Bristol to Bath path (their first) is the exception that proves the rule.  If they were all like that it would be fine.

My understanding is that the Bristol to Bath (bearing in mind they are based in Bristol?) is their flagship route, and almost stands alone in its design and implementation.

I have ridden / walked much of the NCN.  The Bristol to Bath route is one I intend to visit at some point to see how different it is to the rest of the NCN.

Have you been out today?
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #34 on: 28 May, 2009, 07:17:25 am »
The idea behind sustrans seems quite genuine to me. The problem I see is there is no national incentive, everything seems to be done at local level in bits and bobs.
I am happy to use separated paths etc, but in this country the car is king majority of the time they just dont work.

Oscar's dad

  • aka Septimus Fitzwilliam Beauregard Partridge
Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #35 on: 28 May, 2009, 08:28:53 am »
In the main, NCN routes are fine if:

1. There is a local Ranger (like me) ensuring the signing is in order (this can be harder to achieve than you'd think)
2. Said local Ranger is a cyclists and therefore appreciates that you can cycle on roads as opposed to just traffic free facilities
3. The Ranger does his or her best to ensure routes are reasonably direct.

I guess the NCN is many things to many people.  From my perspective the NCN is not primarily for experienced cyclists.  We have the knowledge, confidence and experience to cycle pretty much where we want.  We can use the best cycle network there is: the UK road network.  Many of us started cycling before the NCN existed.  If you are an experienced cyclist in an unfamiliar area the NCN routes through that area can be a useful guide to where the nice cycling country is.

From my perspective the NCN is primarily to get rusty bikes out of sheds and garages and onto the road.  It can be a fantastic facility to those that want to cycle with families (i.e. kids).  I am building the NCN in my area (mid-Essex) with this audience in mind.  If experienced cyclists enjoy using the NCN then that is a fantastic bonus.
 

Oscar's dad

  • aka Septimus Fitzwilliam Beauregard Partridge
Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #36 on: 28 May, 2009, 08:35:10 am »
... The problem I see is there is no national incentive, everything seems to be done at local level in bits and bobs.

As I have just posted I am a NCN Ranger.  Although Sustrans would probably deny it, what you has written here is true, at least from my experience.  My experience tells me that NCN sinks or swims based on the quality of the local Rangers.  I guess to have a national infra structure that was capable of managing something like NCN without having to rely on the quality of volunteers would cost more than Sustrans has. 

I don't have a problem with the reliance on quality volunteers, it can work very well.  I'd like to think it is working increasingly well on my patch, though there is still considerable room for improvement.  But, we're working on it.

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #37 on: 28 May, 2009, 08:40:00 am »
"Iconic long distance rides that the National Cycle Network is famous for"


Yep - a long distance ride to get to the town 10miles away.  ;)

In seriousness, Sustrans is about a whole lot more than the National Cycle Network.

Only about 1/5 of the NCN is on cyclepaths, and I believe that over half of these are tarmac.

Sustrans owns very little of the route. It is by negotiation with councils and landowners. Many landowners will not want access and many do not want tarmac paths across their land. It is not often Sustrans choice as to the condition of the surface or the direction the route takes.

Signing: Signs should be put in by the Highways agency - My section of the NCN needs around 60 signs - the Highways agence put in 9. Two of which were wrong. Most of the signs are put in and maintained by volenteers as 'temporary signage'.

There are a lot of stupididly routed, badly surfaced trails out there, but there are some gems that give communities a shorter, safer cycling or walking route that previously did not excist.


There are some very good NCN routes around Cambridge.  Route 51 and Route 11 up to Ely are quite nice. 

I think this constant slagging off of Sustrans is missing the point.  The idea of the NCN isn't about 'us' getting around quickly - it's about getting 'them' off their arses, out of their cars and onto bikes.  And despite the odd bit of poor quality routing, it tends to do this quite well.

Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #38 on: 28 May, 2009, 08:43:06 am »
The idea behind sustrans seems quite genuine to me.

Genuine, well-intentioned, but flawed.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Oscar's dad

  • aka Septimus Fitzwilliam Beauregard Partridge
Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #39 on: 28 May, 2009, 08:55:48 am »

I think this constant slagging off of Sustrans is missing the point.  The idea of the NCN isn't about 'us' getting around quickly - it's about getting 'them' off their arses, out of their cars and onto bikes.  And despite the odd bit of poor quality routing, it tends to do this quite well.


Exactly.

Oscar's dad

  • aka Septimus Fitzwilliam Beauregard Partridge
Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #40 on: 28 May, 2009, 08:58:29 am »
The idea behind sustrans seems quite genuine to me.

Genuine, well-intentioned, but flawed.

And more volunteer Rangers could address the flaws.  There are many people here that would make excellent Rangers.  It doesn't take much time and is great fun.  Plus, it gives you an opportunity to contribute to the common good.  Since being a Ranger, I have cycled more miles and visited more pubs ever before  ;D

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #41 on: 28 May, 2009, 09:00:14 am »
The idea behind sustrans seems quite genuine to me.

Genuine, well-intentioned, but flawed.

And more volunteer Rangers could address the flaws.  There are many people here that would make excellent Rangers.  It doesn't take much time and is great fun.  Plus, it gives you an opportunity to contribute to the common good.  Since being a Ranger, I have cycled more miles and visited more pubs ever before  ;D


No wonder the signage is so naff in some areas...  :P ;D
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Oscar's dad

  • aka Septimus Fitzwilliam Beauregard Partridge
Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #42 on: 28 May, 2009, 09:10:35 am »
The idea behind sustrans seems quite genuine to me.

Genuine, well-intentioned, but flawed.

And more volunteer Rangers could address the flaws.  There are many people here that would make excellent Rangers.  It doesn't take much time and is great fun.  Plus, it gives you an opportunity to contribute to the common good.  Since being a Ranger, I have cycled more miles and visited more pubs ever before  ;D


No wonder the signage is so naff in some areas...  :P ;D

Git  ;D

Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #43 on: 28 May, 2009, 09:12:18 am »
Quote
My experience tells me that NCN sinks or swims based on the quality of the local Rangers.

The route out of Chelmsford from the university towards Sandon then on towards E.Hanningfield is a much better experience than the battle on the roads through the town and up to the Army and Navy and off towards Southend. I am grateful to add a couple of extra miles to my journey to miss the town centre.

Thats a swim for me  :thumbsup:

Oscar's dad

  • aka Septimus Fitzwilliam Beauregard Partridge
Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #44 on: 28 May, 2009, 09:15:16 am »
Quote
My experience tells me that NCN sinks or swims based on the quality of the local Rangers.

The route out of Chelmsford from the university towards Sandon then on towards E.Hanningfield is a much better experience than the battle on the roads through the town and up to the Army and Navy and off towards Southend. I am grateful to add a couple of extra miles to my journey to miss the town centre.

Thats a swim for me  :thumbsup:

 :-*

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #45 on: 28 May, 2009, 09:16:09 am »
I'm going to do Sustrans Route 11 today, from Cambridge to Kings Lynn.

The only problem with the route is that it ends up in Kings Lynn...  ;) ;D
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #46 on: 28 May, 2009, 09:16:46 am »
In my experience NCN routes in the north west of England are pretty good. Well signed and nice bits of roads.

Lancashire | Sustrans

nic

iakobski

Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #47 on: 28 May, 2009, 09:37:30 am »
I looked at the sustrans website as someone mentioned volunteering for them and I wanted to know for what

I stumbled across this page

Long distance rides | Sustrans

It includes the statement that there are a full range of maps for "Iconic long distance rides that the National Cycle Network is famous for"

It is? 
Well the Coast to Coast is pretty "iconic". And loads of people cycle it as a "long distance ride", many of them sponsored for it. The Trans Penine Trail is pretty "iconic" too.

Quote
Apart from considering going along Hadrians Wall ( never done it), I would actively avoid sustrans routes when I'm riding a long distance.  The reason for this is that the sustrans routes are slow and often do not take a direct route

It's a different thing though. When you or I go out for a "long ride" the aim is to have cycled a long distance (validated against the shortest between controls), to have covered a variety of terrains, seen many different parts of the country, to have cycled through the night to see dawn breaking, etc, etc. For normal people, if they go on a "long ride" they want to cycle for several hours, see some views, have a picnic or a pint. The distance doesn't matter, it's more about the time doing the activity.

Quote
I would say that with me sustrans routes are infamous for potholes, loose gravel, 25% hills, people walking dogs, narrow "tandem trap" gates, poor surfaces, "cyclist dismount" signs and not "iconic long distance routes"

Fancy doing the Worcestershire and South Cotswold 300:D

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #48 on: 28 May, 2009, 09:47:49 am »
...
It's a different thing though. When you or I go out for a "long ride" the aim is to have cycled a long distance (validated against the shortest between controls), to have covered a variety of terrains, seen many different parts of the country, to have cycled through the night to see dawn breaking, etc, etc. For normal people, if they go on a "long ride" they want to cycle for several hours, see some views, have a picnic or a pint. The distance doesn't matter, it's more about the time doing the activity.

I know what you're saying, but I found Sustrans routes frustrating before I got into Audax - a 2 hour journey was painful. I wanted to get to the pub at Snuffing Codbury, which looked enticingly close on the map, but it seemed to take all day.

And it's the stop-starting that's irritating, not just the overall time taken. (and the debris, dogs, dangerous road crossings ... see other posts ad nauseum ... )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: sustrans: you what?
« Reply #49 on: 28 May, 2009, 09:50:36 am »
I'm going to do Sustrans Route 11 today, from Cambridge to Kings Lynn.

The only problem with the route is that it ends up in Kings Lynn...  ;) ;D

Although, to be fair, you should hear what the people of Kings Lynn say about it.
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