Your super powerful rear lights

[mattc]

As long as the person with the uber bright light thinks it may save their life, then the opinion of others as to whether it's too bright doesn't matter. 

Bollox.

If that line of logic was valid, it would justify  a lot of things that you don't want to have on your street:
Humvees, bull-bars, knives, pitbulls ... [3W headtorches - for pedestrians?]

n.b. the bold text is critical here.

[mattc]

Some comments from riding behind me in daylight:

it was fine imo. Not blinding me, i could comfortably ride behind you.

... x N ...

[ I shall avoid the observation that posts from your mates are hardly admissible evidence ]

There is a big difference between daylight and night. I've seen flashing lights in daylight that were too much, but they're very rare [imagine if all road-users bought ex-police flashing blue lights]. It's a bit like daytime-running-lights on cars - they're not a good thing, but they're not a big problem to other road-users.

The light in Wendy's video is probably fine in daylight - angling it up might have tipped the balance, I couldn't say without seeing it.

[Jaded]

Actually (on solo rides) flashing lights in daylight are very useful in certain conditions - like heavily shadowed areas on a sunny day, etc. Certainly more visible than hi-vis which just adds to the confusion.

[Wendy]

Waaaay too much hand wringing on this topic, really.

It seems to me that most peoples' biggest problem with super bright LEDs is flashing modes.  On constant doesn't seem to be such a problem, implying that it's the flashing that hurts.

[Hot Flatus]

If my flashing lights become a problem for you, mattc, I will give up audaxing

[Wendy]

One other point is that my dinotte is not angled well in the way Ian thought it was.  It's actually aimed directly at car driver eye level, not that that makes a massive difference as it has such a good diffuser on it that there's a large even spread of light from it.  It's enough to leave a bright red pool of light on the road behind me, and still light up road signs high above me from relatively close by.

[mattc]

If my flashing lights become a problem for you, mattc, I will give up audaxing

Every cloud has a silver lining.

[Biggsy]

Waaaay too much hand wringing on this topic, really.

It seems to me that most peoples' biggest problem with super bright LEDs is flashing modes.  On constant doesn't seem to be such a problem, implying that it's the flashing that hurts.

Flashing is certainly worse, but the brightest ones hurt my eyes on constant mode as well when parked right in front of me.  It's the nature of inner-city cycling that cyclists end up close together, even when not out of choice, particularly at junctions and queues.  Out of town, it's not so much of an issue.

[Jaded]

One other point is that my dinotte is not angled well in the way Ian thought it was.  It's actually aimed directly at car driver eye level.

Personally, I think this is provocative. Dinottes are designed to do the pool of light thing, not distract following vehicles by shining directly  in their eyes.

[mattc]

It seems to me that most peoples' biggest problem with super bright LEDs is flashing modes.  On constant doesn't seem to be such a problem, implying that it's the flashing that hurts.

Flashing is indeed the bigger problem.

not that that makes a massive difference as it [Dinotte] has such a good diffuser on it that there's a large even spread of light from it.

[I think I said some pages ago that] an even+wide spread of light can probably redeem very bright lights. Some 'medium' lights have a very tight beam, so riding behind them (particularly wobbly riders) is almost as bad as following a flasher! I once got stuck behind a commuter who honked everywhere, thus creating the dreaded searchlight effect. Horrible behind him, horrible in front. It was on an NCN, so I really needed to be able to see the ground in front of me 

[BTW what is the point of the irregular flashing and various disco patterns? More chance of a motorist failing to see you entirely, and much more confusing for the brain attempting to judge velocity vectors and hence your likely position at an impending point of conflict. They should have been made illegal at birth! ]

[Hot Flatus]

If my flashing lights become a problem for you, mattc, I will give up audaxing

Every cloud has a silver lining.

 

[Somnolent]

For the benefit of anyone coming new to this debate - or googling a particular model of light and happening upon YACF - could we have a consensus on which lights - in which modes - fall into which categories? 

I propose

Ludicrous     - ie thoroughly unpleasant to follow for even a brief period on a commute
Maybe some of the Dinottes fall into this category?

Plain Antisocial - unpleasant to follow on Audax or FNRttC
Does the ubiquitous Smart 1/2 watt on flash fall into this category ?

Acceptably bright - you'd probably rather it was dimmer if following for any period, but not "painful"
Smart 1/2 watt on constant ?   LD-1100 with one half constant, other on flash?

And so on down the scale...
Obviously it all depends on the angle (whether by mounting or by riding style as mattc says) .. and keep it just about perception to a following cyclist... ?

[Hot Flatus]

There is such a thing as a strategic use of bright lights.

Sooner or later mattc will get the hint   

[Wendy]

Personally, I think this is provocative. Dinottes are designed to do the pool of light thing, not distract following vehicles by shining directly  in their eyes.

I think we did this before - that's only in your opinion.

[Hot Flatus]

It is also the opinion if Dinotte.   

(which I wilfully ignore)

[Wendy]

It is also the opinion if Dinotte.   

(which I wilfully ignore)

ISTR Jaded said it was in the manual.  It might once have been, but it's not in the 400L manual I got with mine.  I suspect that's because they've got a better diffuser now.  Perhaps it's partly also the 2 x 3W LEDs, and the combination means you can get plenty of light shining back towards drivers, as well as a big pool of light on the road behind you.

[Hot Flatus]

I think the original seatpost mounting method of the 140r makes it very hard to have the light pointing anywhere other than towards the ground. With the mount the released a while later, or with your own bodge, you can point it where you want.

The diffusers on the 400r are different. They do diffuse the light, but it is so powerful it's almost academic. When Dinotte released the now defunct 600l, if you dug around on their website, you could find a tail version 

[Wendy]

I've seen some photos of Leftpondian bikes and trikes with a several of Dinotte 400L red tail lights, and at least two yellow ones as well.   

[De Sisti]

BTW what is the point of the irregular flashing and various disco patterns? More chance of a motorist failing to see you entirely, and much more confusing for the brain attempting to judge velocity vectors and hence your likely position at an impending point of conflict.

Can you point us to the researched evidence to prove this?

[mattc]

evidence for this:
and much more confusing for the brain attempting to judge velocity vectors and hence your likely position
?

Studies certainly exist - they're probably mentioned earlier in the thread. Hardly surprising if you picture the different types of light.

[Hot Flatus]

Flashing red light=bicycle, potentially quite close.

Solid red light could be a moped a mile or two up the road

[Valiant]

It might also be the cocoon effect, I never realise how bright my lights actually are. I usually meet up with my gf en route and comment on peoples lights "oooh that's bright I want it" to which she replies "Sam, it's positively dim compared to what you've got". I never sort of realise it until I someone else with the same in which case I'm like fuck me. My taillights aimed down, then there it's plenty bright enough to command attention from drivers, the front is angled every so slightly down. Ie it'll hit the wing mirrors and light up the inside of the car but it won't be annoying in the rear view so much. But I do agree with Jaded in that such lights can be provocative.

[De Sisti]

evidence for this:
and much more confusing for the brain attempting to judge velocity vectors and hence your likely position
?

Studies certainly exist - they're probably mentioned earlier in the thread.

They're probably not.

Flashing red light=bicycle, potentially quite close
Flashing red light=bicycle, probably travelling less than 30mph, if in car, adjust speed
accordingly when overtaking them, and ffs don't crash into them.

[itsbruce]

I think some people are missing the fact that Matt was condemning irregular patterns in flashing lights, not simple regular patterns.  It was an aside, not part of his main argument.

It shouldn't take much thought to work out why an irregular flash pattern, in dark conditions, could confuse somebody behind you about the speed of your lateral movement.

[mattc]

BTW what is the point of the irregular flashing and various disco patterns? More chance of a motorist failing to see you entirely, and much more confusing for the brain attempting to judge velocity vectors and hence your likely position at an impending point of conflict.

Can you point us to the researched evidence to prove this?

This isn't a court of law - I feel no obligation to produce citations for you.

What will be the reward for me finding this research? Will you concede the debate? How about a decent sized wager, sir? (proceeds to CDF)