Author Topic: Help with frame related questions (Read 296812 times)

Zipperhead · « **Reply #200 on:** 16 July, 2012, 09:45:17 pm »

Good idea, it is way out of warranty, but I could email them and ask them if they could suggest anybody with the necessary skills. I'm not sure if they're set up to do TIG welding, I only remember seeing brazing being done in the factory - but, don't ask don't get!

Revellinho · « **Reply #201 on:** 24 July, 2012, 08:58:34 pm »

I have a frame related question/problem. I have been riding a road bike and doing audax events for a couple of years on an entry level tourer with an Al frame on 28mm tyres. My main problem has been that as I go to the longer distances (400/600) I get numb hands, even though I have tried to adopt a gentle grip and used gel inserts under the tape. I want to do LEL next year and am concerned about this problem. The 3 options seem to be...

a) get someone who knows what they are talking about who can sort out my bar and brakes position/angle

b) get some carbon forks fitted to the bike

c) give up trying to improve this bike (Dawes Vantage) and get a better frame - steel/titanium? Problem is I cannot afford a one off outlay of 1-2k and would need a cyclescheme or 'easy terms'.

I think that the problem is exacebrated by the fact that my longer routes have been very hilly, so lots of braking and LEL should not be too bad.

Bicycle Repair Man · « **Reply #202 on:** 24 July, 2012, 09:32:56 pm »

Quote from: Revellinho on 24 July, 2012, 08:58:34 pm

I have a frame related question/problem. I have been riding a road bike and doing audax events for a couple of years on an entry level tourer with an Al frame on 28mm tyres. My main problem has been that as I go to the longer distances (400/600) I get numb hands, even though I have tried to adopt a gentle grip and used gel inserts under the tape. I want to do LEL next year and am concerned about this problem. The 3 options seem to be...

a) get someone who knows what they are talking about who can sort out my bar and brakes position/angle

b) get some carbon forks fitted to the bike

c) give up trying to improve this bike (Dawes Vantage) and get a better frame - steel/titanium? Problem is I cannot afford a one off outlay of 1-2k and would need a cyclescheme or 'easy terms'.

I think that the problem is exacebrated by the fact that my longer routes have been very hilly, so lots of braking and LEL should not be too bad.

Hi Revellinho

Difficult to say without seeing you in the flesh as it were. Can you post a pic or two of you on your bike? Ideally taken from the side against a wall, one with pedal at bottom of stroke and one with crank horizontal facing forward. I have to say that sort of frame is not ideal for that sort of riding so a change of frame would be a good bet. You do not need to spend a fortune on a new frame, a decent 631 or similar tubed frame could be picked up quite reasonably second hand and as long as you can find one in the right size area you can fine tune the position with the components.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Revellinho · « **Reply #203 on:** 24 July, 2012, 10:05:58 pm »

will comply with requests when it is daylight - am doing settle - southport - settle tomorrow, so will try to get some innocent bystander to snap me!

Revellinho · « **Reply #204 on:** 25 July, 2012, 08:53:23 pm »

This link should go to the photos - some on the hoods others on drops but it was getting gloomy when I got back so they were a bit rushed.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/67062984@N00/

mrcharly-YHT · « **Reply #205 on:** 03 August, 2012, 08:59:24 am »

Shoot me down in flames, but I'd say straight off that your bars are far too low.

That bike has quite a long reach for you, combining that with the slower riding speeds of Audax plus low bars and you are putting a lot of pressure on your hands.

Can you flip the stem? Might need to replace brake and gear cables.

frankly frankie · « **Reply #206 on:** 03 August, 2012, 02:00:01 pm »

That's a similar riding position to the one I have, and have used on 3x PBPs. Works for me!
I use an Alu frame and straight bars (so have fewer options for hand movement).
I do occasionally get hand numbness problems but I take the view that this is greatly preferable to bum discomfort, and it's very difficult to eliminate both without raising my fitness and leg strength considerably.
You only have the 3 contact points, hands, feet, bum - unless you are rock-hard then on the longer distances, something's gonna hurt. Unless you're a concert violinist my vote would go for the hands.

I'd suggest an option
d) Aquire the habit of shifting your hands regularly, like every 1 or 2 minutes. I don't mean big moves such as tops/drops/hoods necessarily, but just small movements to alter the pressure points. Just the same as you would shift around slightly on the saddle to stay comfortable. It has to be learned, then it becomes a habit.

Tewdric · « **Reply #207 on:** 03 August, 2012, 03:53:38 pm »

That looks like quite a good position for audax tbh. Your knee is nicely above the ball of your foot with the crank forward, but that's perhaps distorted by what looks like quite a mid foot cleat position (which a lot of people say they get on well with). Perhaps try moving the saddle back about a centimeter to reduce the weight you are carrying on your wrists? You should also lower the saddle a fraction too to maintain the same distance from saddle to pedals.

If this section of the thread takes off I will consider splitting it off - I don't think we wibble enough about riding position given how crucial it is to performance, injury prevention and enjoyment.

Revellinho · « **Reply #208 on:** 03 August, 2012, 04:51:37 pm »

Split away by all means! Just to add to the mix, I did a hilly 400 the other day and did not have even a hint of numbness in the hands. I change my grip a lot but have added in a sort of fist on top of the hoods - as if I am grabbing vertical extensions coming up out of the bar - not so good if you need quick access to the brakes, but really comfortable with no awkward wrist angles.

Interesting that it looks as though I am over-reaching, as many would say the frame/stem set up is too small using the 'can you see the front hub' rule of thumb. I can see the hub with plenty to spare! I do suffer with knee problems and I am currently experimenting with the saddle a half cm forward and the (spd) cleats are now in the forward slot to see what it is like with the knee right over the pedal centre, instead of 2cm behind it. This pushes me even further over the bars!

BTW I did lower the bars 1.5cm just to try and get a bit more aerodynamic.

I will keep experimenting and thanks for the comments, it's appreciated. I expect that my experiments will get a thorough examination on the Tregaron Dragon in a couple of weeks, as it is lots of hills that tend to be the acid test and although I haven't done it before I know it is a bit uppy-downey.

mrcharly-YHT · « **Reply #209 on:** 03 August, 2012, 05:04:48 pm »

I think a split would be good.

Now, back to bar height.

I'm a believer in being able to sit up now and then. It's good to give your neck/back a break and change of position.

I'm also a believer in not having straight arms. Straight arms = shock transmitted to neck and shoulders.

You've lowered the bars you say - but how much time do you spend on the drops?

Bending your elbows a bit would get you down into a more aero position and still leave you with the option of sitting up. Take a look at the racers tucked down - hands either side of the stem, forearms parallel with the road. Unless you are riding in that position and still not getting low, you don't need to lower your bars.

Biggsy · « **Reply #210 on:** 03 August, 2012, 05:19:29 pm »

Quote from: Revellinho on 03 August, 2012, 04:51:37 pm

I will keep experimenting

But do it by tiny increments at a time, and experiment in every direction (even when you expect it's the opposite from what's required). Have and juggle 2mm spacers in your headset stack, and be prepared to buy yet more stems and handlebars. Sell unwanted parts through this forum or eBay to help pay for them.

Bicycle Repair Man · « **Reply #211 on:** 29 August, 2012, 08:40:26 pm »

Now then people.

My apologies for seeming to disapear from the face of the earth for a while, alas life gets in the way of the good stuff from time to time.

Revellinho,
Having looked at your pictures I reckon your bars are a bit low. I usually look for an equal angle on back and arms and you are tilted forwards slightly. I try and set people up so that the top of the bars are level with or no more than about 1"-2" below depending on their arm length. Your saddle height looks just about spot on. I would seriously consider the carbon fork option. I would put money on those foks you have being a significant factor, they look pretty "solid" to me and as such will transmit a lot of vibration and road shocks straight up into your hands /arms.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Revellinho · « **Reply #212 on:** 13 September, 2012, 10:07:50 pm »

thanks

I have recently moved my bars back up again, but am going to experiment with a slightly longer stem. I had to borrow and use a bike that was a tad large for me during August and it was a bit 'reachy', but I found this to be very comfortable on at least one all-day ride and when I got my own bike back it felt very 'bunched up' on the front.

I know about the Al-alloy frame and steel forks and as soon as I can afford to do so, hope to upgrade. I thought a good quality full steel frame and forks was the answer but will look into the carbon forks issue.

mrcharly-YHT · « **Reply #213 on:** 14 September, 2012, 11:33:18 am »

Also try rotating bars a bit.

Mscharly was getting hand pain even on short rides and was convinced her bike was too small for her. Watched her a bit, then rotate bars down a tad. Pain vanished.

Revellinho · « **Reply #214 on:** 14 September, 2012, 03:33:30 pm »

Interesting and worth looking at. I used to think that you just got a bike and pedalled it, but when small niggles are magnified by hours of riding it is amazing how many variables there are to check... saddle height, saddle position fore/aft, saddle angle, cleat position, stem angle, stem length and now bar rotation.

SteelRules · « **Reply #215 on:** 26 September, 2012, 09:36:32 pm »

There and back again,

It's been too quiet for sometime.

Hi, Dave, yes it's me again :$. I hope that everything is going on well. Hopefully, you wont mind too much if I ask some questions. May be you will find the time to reply?

1. How do you set the tubes in your fixture to design the frame? Do you work in angles? Do you work in lengths so that you choose chainstay length to achieve desired center-rear? In the same manner, do you choose the top tube, seat tube angle and fork rake to achieve a desired center-front?

2. I am happy to be a guinea pig. What measurements would you choose for a frame used by somebody being 184m tall, 95kg, 91cm inseam, 68cm shoulder to knuckles. The frame would be ridden for training and cycling club rides.

3. Is it possible to initially set the tubes taking into account the expansion that takes place after joining? In other words, is it feasible to join the tubes resulting in a frame aligned within a reasonable margin of error?

4. Does Reynolds offer top tube and seat tube in 31.7mm diameter and 35mm diameter for downtube? Are there lugs to join such diameter pipes?

5. I do not quite understand the current fad that aims at shortening and shortening the chain stays. Do you have the impression that a bike is more stable if the chain stays are longer than 41cm so that more weight is placed on front wheel? My definition of stability is that leaning of the bike while moving forward translates into steering. In the same manner, do you consider shortening the top tube to have a longer and lower stem so that front center mass further aids steering?

I really appreciate your illuminating comments.
Many thanks for your time and patience.

Let's not forget that steel rules

Bicycle Repair Man · « **Reply #216 on:** 30 September, 2012, 11:25:02 pm »

Now then rusty

First off let me reiterate, there are as many ways of building frames as there are framebuilders. Anything I describe is my way of doing it and in no way a standard, industry or otherwise.

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1. How do you set the tubes in your fixture to design the frame? Do you work in angles? Do you work in lengths so that you choose chainstay length to achieve desired center-rear? In the same manner, do you choose the top tube, seat tube angle and fork rake to achieve a desired center-front?

I design the frame for the customer, then when I come to build it I set up the jig. I use seat angle and head angle/fork offset, top tube length, bb drop and rear centres. If the customer specifies toe clearance then I take this into account when designing the frame by adjusting angles, top tube and fork offset.

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2. I am happy to be a guinea pig. What measurements would you choose for a frame used by somebody being 184m tall, 95kg, 91cm inseam, 68cm shoulder to knuckles. The frame would be ridden for training and cycling club rides.

I have mentioned before that I dont work from numbers alone so without a fair bit more information those numbers dont mean a lot. Having designed and built several thousand frames I dont actually need a guinea pig and in any case, being a bit of a dinosaur I only work in inches and pounds, I cant make any sense of these strange foriegn measurements

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3. Is it possible to initially set the tubes taking into account the expansion that takes place after joining? In other words, is it feasible to join the tubes resulting in a frame aligned within a reasonable margin of error?

There is no "expansion" after joining. Steel expands when heated then contracts when cooled. Any framebuilder worthy of the name will produce a frame aligned to "a reasonable margin of error"

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4. Does Reynolds offer top tube and seat tube in 31.7mm diameter and 35mm diameter for downtube? Are there lugs to join such diameter pipes?

Reynolds do tubes in these diameters, actually 1 1/4" and 1 3/8" as all Reynolds tube is produced in imperial diameters. Lugs are available.

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5. I do not quite understand the current fad that aims at shortening and shortening the chain stays. Do you have the impression that a bike is more stable if the chain stays are longer than 41cm so that more weight is placed on front wheel? My definition of stability is that leaning of the bike while moving forward translates into steering. In the same manner, do you consider shortening the top tube to have a longer and lower stem so that front center mass further aids steering?

I dont quite understand your use of the word "current" This was a "fad" long before I started building frames. Claude Butler and Jack Taylor curved seat tube, Flying Gate, Condor split seat tube, MKM seat tube onto down tube, etc, all dating from the 70's and before. The rest of your question depends entirely on A) the rider and B) the purpose to which the bike is to be put.

Dave Yates

bikepacker · « **Reply #217 on:** 22 October, 2012, 08:49:52 pm »

I want a custom built frame to replace the titanium I have recently sold. Other than Flying Gate there doesn't seem to be any frame builders in my area. Does anyone know of a frame builder in the Midlands area I could look at?

clarion · « **Reply #218 on:** 22 October, 2012, 08:55:43 pm »

Dave's in the Midlands. Just the East Midlands. As is Mercian.

Hot Flatus · « **Reply #219 on:** 22 October, 2012, 08:56:33 pm »

Brian Rourke in Stoke?

clarion · « **Reply #220 on:** 22 October, 2012, 08:57:11 pm »

Longstaff

Edison

MB

clarion · « **Reply #221 on:** 22 October, 2012, 09:00:31 pm »

Going the other way, there's Argos in Bristol - are they still building?

clarion · « **Reply #222 on:** 22 October, 2012, 09:01:58 pm »

I think Lee Cooper's in Coventry.

clarion · « **Reply #223 on:** 22 October, 2012, 09:03:00 pm »

Do Henry Burton still make their own frames?

bikepacker · « **Reply #224 on:** 22 October, 2012, 11:07:12 pm »

I'll check up tomorrow on Henry Burton, I have emailed Lee Cooper but got no response. Like the idea of using Dave but it is a jaunt from here over to Lincolnshire. Robin Mather is not too far away and although he is top notch his price is very high for a steel frame. Really only looking at the £1000 mark.