Nerd alert - edits on Route Planning Software -

[bikey-mikey]

OK I warned you.

I use biketoutetoaster, and sometimes bikehike - often for 200k plus rides.  I know the quirks of each system and by and large get along fine with them.

However, sometimes I look at the route and think  "if I turned left 'there' and followed that little road to 'here' it would be better....

In bikehike, you can go into dragedit mode, but when you drag one point to a new road it recalculates the whole damn route, and as I use a local cyclepath, or maybe the severn road bridge cyclepath, it invariably produces a complete dogs dinner.  So you end up starting again, and plotting the whole thing as new.....

In BRToaster you can drag individual points, but it does not autoroute plan the changes, i.e. the blue route line does not auto change, so you have to save the change, with a slightly different name, and then reload the new name, and then the moved point shows, with weird blue lines back to the original route, whihc over a period of hours and with some luck you can delete each point one by one, and then 'enter after' the new bit - you have to keep on saving though, cos sooner or late you get a complete knot of lines and don't know which to keep and which to delete.

So.... anyone got a better way, or better routing system into which you can download existing routes purely for the editing???

Please 

[MSeries]

I use Google maps with the addition of some custom software to generate the gpx and save them in a database for download later. It's the rubber banding of Google Maps that I most like which is why I'm doing it this way, the others use the Google Maps API which doesn't do rubber banding.

I have plans to add the edit function but currently I'm working on the the production of an elevations chart.

[phil d]

I'm sure Martin's own app that translates Google Maps into a .gpx is better, and I must try it, but the GMAPtoGPX program (www.elsewhere.org/journal/gmaptogpx) works quite well enough to translate Google Maps to gpx.  Frankly Frankie described how to use this, with practical illustrations, in the Feb 2009 Arrivee (and reproduced at http://www.aukadia.net/gps/lwg_7.htm ).  It does require the use of a text editor to save it in a usable format (this is the stage that I imagine Martin's creation integrates), but I have created many usable gpx tracks and routes using Francis's method.

[MSeries]

I'm sure Martin's own app that translates Google Maps into a .gpx is better, and I must try it, but the GMAPStoGPX program (www.elsewhere.org/journal/gmaptogpx) works quite well enough to translate Google Maps to gpx.  Frankly Frankie described how to use this, with practical illustrations, in the Feb 2009 Arrivee.  It does require the use of a text editor to save it in a usable format (this is the stage that I imagine Martin's creation integrates), but I have created many usable gpx tracks and routes using Francis's method.

Yup. I have two versions, one just line GMap2GPX but it creates only tracks and adds a Garmin extension to make the track green in my GPS and if it needs to it will make more than one track each with <500 points in the gpx. (Load using mapsource and it'll work just fine, unlike gpsbabel) You still have to copy and paste to a file though . Only works in Firefox.

My other version skips the copy and paste step and allows immediate downloading to save or open in a program, such as mapsource from where it can be squirted into a GPS. This software allows tracks to be saved in a database.

it's all here http://m-tracks.appspot.com/

its not all linked up so far but I have a track catalogue here  http://m-tracks.appspot.com/list

BE WARNED IF YOU SAVE STUFF IT MIGHT GET DELETED AS I TEST THINGS

[Euan Uzami]

In bikehike you have to either:

1) don't use auto follow road
2) split the route, into 3 sections, the bit you want to reroute, the bit before, and the bit after. reroute the bit you do, then join them back up.

(1) is not that much more time consuming, and what i would do.
(2) splitting a route isn't that difficult, using 'reverse route' in conjunction with 'cut to end' makes this possible.

If you want to use auto routing, then you have to do (2) otherwise there is no way for it to know which bit you want to reroute and which bit you don't. YOU know, but there's no way for it to know...
When you use drag edit mode with auto follow road turned on it's not just moving one point, but moving a lot of points, most/all of which it created automatically itself in order to make the track 'snap' to the road.

The only way for it to be able to move all those points is to reroute the entire route from start to beginning. It would be feasible, for it to bewritten such that it remembers which points you clicked, and which it added automatically, and regard the ones you clicked as 'gospel', like it does for its undo function, but that isn't implemented for the drag/edit function. Maybe you could suggest it to the author...

Try using 'drag/edit' mode with auto follow roads turned off - you'll see that moving a single point just creates a 'spike'.

[sbseven]

In bikehike, you can go into dragedit mode, but when you drag one point to a new road it recalculates the whole damn route, and as I use a local cyclepath, or maybe the severn road bridge cyclepath, it invariably produces a complete dogs dinner.  So you end up starting again, and plotting the whole thing as new.....

In bikehike you have to either:

1) don't use auto follow road
2) split the route, into 3 sections, the bit you want to reroute, the bit before, and the bit after. reroute the bit you do, then join them back up.

(1) is not that much more time consuming, and what i would do.
(2) splitting a route isn't that difficult, using 'reverse route' in conjunction with 'cut to end' makes this possible.

If you want to use auto routing, then you have to do (2) otherwise there is no way for it to know which bit you want to reroute and which bit you don't. YOU know, but there's no way for it to know...

In BikeHike you need to add "Hard Points" before and after the section of track you want to reroute.

In Drag Edit Mode, mouseover part of the route and press CTRL+Left Mouse. This will drop a black-dot on the route (the Hard Point). Do the same again somewhere else on the route. Now when you drag the route between the two hard-points only that section will reroute. The rest of the route will be untouched. You can remove a Hard Point by clicking CTRL+Left Mouse on the black dot.

[Euan Uzami]

Oh rly.

[Manotea]

I'm sure Martin's own app that translates Google Maps into a .gpx is better, and I must try it, but the GMAPStoGPX program (www.elsewhere.org/journal/gmaptogpx) works quite well enough to translate Google Maps to gpx.  Frankly Frankie described how to use this, with practical illustrations, in the Feb 2009 Arrivee.  It does require the use of a text editor to save it in a usable format (this is the stage that I imagine Martin's creation integrates), but I have created many usable gpx tracks and routes using Francis's method.

Yup. I have two versions, one just line GMap2GPX but it creates only tracks and adds a Garmin extension to make the track green in my GPS and if it needs to it will make more than one track each with <500 points in the gpx. (Load using mapsource and it'll work just fine, unlike gpsbabel) You still have to copy and paste to a file though . Only works in Firefox.

My other version skips the copy and paste step and allows immediate downloading to save or open in a program, such as mapsource from where it can be squirted into a GPS. This software allows tracks to be saved in a database.

it's all here http://m-tracks.appspot.com/

its not all linked up so far but I have a track catalogue here  http://m-tracks.appspot.com/list

BE WARNED IF YOU SAVE STUFF IT MIGHT GET DELETED AS I TEST THINGS

Hi Martin, Just given your  app a whirl in Chrome.

Ran up a test route from home to Bangor, downloaded the GPX into Mapsource and save it as a  GDB.

Ran the GDB through WINGDB3 Opt21: Convert tracks to routes with waypoints, Selected: Save original tracks, Selected: Filter, Number of points per route after filtering: 50

Job done. Excellent.

[thing1]

Nice! At first I thought only the pure JS version was working in Chrome, but I think the other one just takes a bit longer to respond.

One comment: on the homepage http://m-tracks.appspot.com/ you mention the tracks are "optimised for a Garmin GPS" -- probably worth mentioning which Garmin model, as they vary so much in limitations and what sort of track works best.

[MSeries]

Thanks for the feedback chaps. Interesting about Chrome, good news. The other version, that is the non pure JS one, communicates back with the Google App Engine (GAE) server to do the routing using the Google map data. GAE suspends applications that are not in use and reloads them when called so you almost certainly experienced the start up time. Of course if GAE isn't available .... That's beyond my control.

The JS version does the track generation on your computer using the Google Map data. It just does a call out to Google Maps for the data. I don't want to get into writing to local disks just yet, I may privide a proper Firefox Plugin to do that though but that would help Chrome users


I am currently working on  providing an elevation chart, (heres a preview) I have got the data from Google Elevations. I have the chart working in my test bed using the Google Charts. This is my second chart version, my first attempt is great locally using JFreeChart but sadly GAE doesn't permit someof the things that JFreeChart needs to run in it's sandbox. [If this was my server I could do whatever I wanted]

Manotea, I could write what ever you desire into this. I could provide support for profiles then attach your preferences to your profile so that you can do all that manipulation before downloading ( not sure about GDB but I am not sure if that's not just an intermediate step for WINGDB).

I have  just finished a track point filter routine which I'll need for the elevation chart generation (we don't need to plot 4000 points in a 800 pixel wide chart), I copied it from GPSDings. That range of tools is work a look bythe way, he's written some useful stuff including getting elevation data from the SRTM3 which is something I looked into before with limited success. I'm going to disect his code and see what I can learn.

thing1, FYI I have only tested this stuff with my Vista C and I load it using MapSource.  I tried loading using GPSBabel on Linux but it ignores the multiple tracks and loads just the track points which causes the GPS to truncate to 500 !!

[frankly frankie]

ISTR recent versions of WinGDB can open GPX as well

[thing1]

Perhaps the easiest way to save file on Chrome is use the "desktop drag-out" markup: http://slides.html5rocks.com/#drag-out no plugin necessary
There's also the FileWriter API, but that hides the written files away and not so easy for the user to track down

[Manotea]

GDB is the native Mapsource file format. Mapsource opens GPX no probs and WINGDB3 works with a variety of file formats as well nowadays.

Manotea, I could write what ever you desire...

What I would like is what I'll call Mapsource/Audax/Etrex Legacy mode, being a GPX with:

Track, segmented into stages where stages are demarc'd by pairs of GMAP Destinations . If a stage is more than 500 trackpoints then segment again (Stage1a, Stage1b, etc.). Set colour to (say) Green.

Route, one per stage, where stages are demarc'd by pairs of GMAP destinations which are defined as Red Flag Waypoints. Also set manually defined 'Rubber band' points as Blue flagged Waypoints (this allows the user to set additional Waypoints as they require). Then define evenly spaced routepoints along the route to a maximum of 50 way/route points per route. Set flag to 69 (small green dot) so they are visible but not obtrusive. Set route colour to White.

This will allow users to follow (static) tracks whilst benefiting from guidance offered by follow road route functionality. The routes will (!) contain enough routepoints to keep the GPS routing reliably on Track (sic), mimicing the GPXX support of newer Garmin models.

That's what I would like ATMIT. Others MMV.

[bikey-mikey]

All very interesting, and thank you all...

Ben - I hadn't read the thread responses by the time I rode next to you on Sunday, so apols for not thanking you personally.

SBSeven - yes yes yes - black dots worked a treat !!  So much easier, and I was wrong thinking I knew the quirks... 

Re the GMAP - are we referring to google maps, cos I can't see how you do routes on them, except by adding in each new point as a town ahead of the route and then redragging it to where you want -  however if it is Gmap pedometer, then it froze my system completely and I had to reboot, and I thought it prudent to stay away - maybe it hates IE8? Maybe it is a browser issue?  If it's relevant, I don't use IE9 cos it (a couple of months ago) would not work with the google maps 'orange man' street view system which I use when creating gps routes from audax route sheets that say 'turn left after the 10 foot tall gorilla' or similar....

What is rubber banding?   

New question - Is there any way to get the / any software to calculate routes based on the total climbing?

Some trips I want to go crazy mad for AAA and others I want to cruise along at a high rate of knots in 50x12, but at the moment it is a matter of looking at the terrain and contours and then experimenting with trial and error....

If you could ask for the lowest climbing route between two points, that would be really cool.... 
(I have no problems getting the highest climbing routes - seems to be a mystery talent of mine....  )

[Euan Uzami]

All very interesting, and thank you all...

Ben - I hadn't read the thread responses by the time I rode next to you on Sunday, so apols for not thanking you personally.

SBSeven - yes yes yes - black dots worked a treat !!  So much easier, and I was wrong thinking I knew the quirks... 

Re the GMAP - are we referring to google maps, cos I can't see how you do routes on them, except by adding in each new point as a town ahead of the route and then redragging it to where you want -  however if it is Gmap pedometer, then it froze my system completely and I had to reboot, and I thought it prudent to stay away - maybe it hates IE8? Maybe it is a browser issue?  If it's relevant, I don't use IE9 cos it (a couple of months ago) would not work with the google maps 'orange man' street view system which I use when creating gps routes from audax route sheets that say 'turn left after the 10 foot tall gorilla' or similar....

What is rubber banding?   

New question - Is there any way to get the / any software to calculate routes based on the total climbing?

Some trips I want to go crazy mad for AAA and others I want to cruise along at a high rate of knots in 50x12, but at the moment it is a matter of looking at the terrain and contours and then experimenting with trial and error....

If you could ask for the lowest climbing route between two points, that would be really cool.... 
(I have no problems getting the highest climbing routes - seems to be a mystery talent of mine....  )

The 'hard point' in bikehike isnew to me but sounds useful, so thanks for asking.
the 'gmaptogpx' link (elsewhere.org) is for when you have created a route in bog standard google maps, yes by entering town names and dragging, and you then want a gpx out of it.  You bookmark it as a link but when you click it it  basically just runs a bit of javascript and interrogates the map and produces a gpx file out of it and displays it in a frame.

[bikey-mikey]

The 'hard point' in bikehike isnew to me but sounds useful, so thanks for asking.

Yes indeed I changed a bit of my route back home from Gladestry - the black dots are very small, and I almost thought that the ctrl + left click was not working, but it was just my tired old eyes - the drag and recalc for the bit between the dots was smooth and perfect.

the 'gmaptogpx' link (elsewhere.org) is for when you have created a route in bog standard google maps, yes by entering town names and dragging, and you then want a gpx out of it.  You bookmark it as a link but when you click it it  basically just runs a bit of javascript and interrogates the map and produces a gpx file out of it and displays it in a frame.

Yes I tried that once and all it produced was about three or four lines of text (obviously without the extra help as mentioned earlier)

So why do people use google maps when BRT or Bikehike is out there?

[phil d]

So why do people use google maps when BRT or Bikehike is out there?

Horses for courses.  Both have their plus points, and their drawbacks.

I'm not a Bikehike user (tried it, didn't like it) so my knowledge of that app will be flawed.  But it seems to me that you have to build up your route from the start to force it to go through particular points.  With Google Maps you can specify your start and finish, and then drag the route to include those intermediate points.  The route will redraw in real time (I presume this is the "rubber banding" referred to above) so you can immediately see the effect of your change (and undo it if needs be).

The OS pane in Bikehike is nice, as is the integrated gpx compiler.  Streetview in GoogleMaps is also useful to view junctions or identify prompts, and with apps like MSeries's or GMAPtoGPX gpx generation is almost as easy. 

[frankly frankie]

Additional to that, I have 2 problems with Bikehike specifically -
1. it's a bit graphics- and bandwidth- intensive.  ie its a dog on a slow PC, and even on a fast one it offends my miserly streak.
2. The OS mapping is a non-feature outside the UK.