New bike procrastination...Thorn Audax MkIII to replace Raleigh Randonneur?

[Trull]

So, I need a new bike, as all the interesting bits have seized up on my ever faithful Black Bess (Raleigh Randonneur 1989 vintage, been through 3 groupsets...although the ESGE mudguards still go strong), and am now looking at a pukka fast machine able to comfortably eat the miles with some minimal load carrying. So the contenders have been winnowed down to the Thorn Audax MkIII, which comes in at a neat 1500quid or 1800quid if it gets some Hope hub goodness.

Is this the only option? Will I notice a big improvement over the hand built in Nottingham Raleigh? Any thoughts?

I've discarded Al frames as they are too harsh (although fine off road), similarly carbon over concerns of snappage... the bodger in me also says to take the Randonneur to LBS explain they need to sort out a thorough strip down and let them have at it and send her for some TLC via a paintshop to restore and fit some campy jewellery et al.

I'm in a quandry - please set me straight. Gently 

[howieduck]

I've just got a new Condor Fratello. Build it up how you want. Mine is lovely! Very comfortable, fits me well and about the same price as the Thorn depending on your choice of wheels etc

[MercuryKev]

I've got a couple of Audax Mk3s.  They are pretty nippy, especially with a carbon fork, and they are versatile - you can set them up as a tourer or a faster audax bike.  However, for the money you're looking at I'd now go with something like the Spa Ti Audax bike - http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m1b0s21p2573

I do prefer riding my Ti audax bike over distance rather than the Mk3, although I've ridden 600s on that.

[Trull]

Thank you for the replies howieduck and MercuryKev, I had not thought about Condor's frames and I can see how they could offer an attractive bike. On the Ti-bike, Spa offer a plain gauge titanium frame, which I am a bit lukewarm on - what makes it your fav long distance machine? is road buzz taken out nicely? good at hillclimbing? I live near the Cairngorms so hill climb ability is a must through a solid rear triangle. One of the snags of the Raleigh is that I can feel it bend when I'm honking up a 1:4. Would that be improved?

I should also say that I'm 6ft 16St ... or 184cm 102kg rider. Although that weight is targetted to go down to 85kg once I get a few more miles in...

[vorsprung]

You could get a hand made frame from David Yates for £950 quid.  I'm sure that other UK frame builders (Bob Jackson, Burls etc) are a similar price

[MercuryKev]

Thank you for the replies howieduck and MercuryKev, I had not thought about Condor's frames and I can see how they could offer an attractive bike. On the Ti-bike, Spa offer a plain gauge titanium frame, which I am a bit lukewarm on - what makes it your fav long distance machine? is road buzz taken out nicely? good at hillclimbing? I live near the Cairngorms so hill climb ability is a must through a solid rear triangle. One of the snags of the Raleigh is that I can feel it bend when I'm honking up a 1:4. Would that be improved?

I should also say that I'm 6ft 16St ... or 184cm 102kg rider. Although that weight is targetted to go down to 85kg once I get a few more miles in...

I don't have the Spa, I've got a Sabbath September which is also plain gauge Ti - it simpily is less harsh over distance which I think is due to the dampening nature of ti.  My frame doesn't suffer from flexi and it gets ridden over all thie hills you'll be riding your over.  I've had it up over the Lecht heading north with 18kg panniers on it and it's been fine (the climb from Cock Bridge wasn't, however!).  I don't think the Spa machine will be a million miles from the Sabbath - both made in the far east, as is the MK3.

[mrcharly-YHT]

similarly carbon over concerns of snappage...

These days this is a complete and utter non-issue.
See http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=63696.0

Almost every single decent quality road bike you can find will have carbon forks (touring bikes may have steel).

At the price you are considering paying you could get a Mercian, Bob Jackson or Dave Yates in Steel.

Or go for carbon - the current round-the-world-record holder rode a carbon bike with the same frame as Chocolatebike's machine.

Percentage-wise, Ti frames seem more liable to cracks than CF.

[clarion]

...At the price you are considering paying you could get a Mercian, Bob Jackson or Dave Yates in Steel...

Favoured option.

[LEE]

I was in your position a couple of years back.

It was 50/50 between the Thorn Audax and the Condor Fratello.  I chose the Fratello, Chillmoister (of this parish) chose the Thorn.

The Fratello is more of a modern take on a traditional fast tourer, the Thorn is more traditional but they are both "fast tourers/Audax" bikes.

We both ended up completing PBP1200 last year in as much comfort as you can expect when you sit on a bike for 90 hours.

They are both in the price bracket you mention (actually the Thorn price has increased a lot in 3 years relative to the Fratello.)  3 years ago the Thorn was in a price range that set it apart from any serious competition (£899 complete), today it's competing with some "big names" in touring bikes.

It came down to looks in the end for me. I saw the Fratello in grey and had to have it. I still love it.

I don't think chillmoister could like his Thorn any more than he does either.

This hasn't helped you one bit has it?

[Trull]

I'm almost as confused as I was when I asked the question - would the ride be better on the Thorn compared with the 72degree parallel 531ST frame of the Raleigh....

So here goes:
Mercian - still a bit pricey I think,
Condor - nice but they are southern poofs (I've heard)
Thorn - nice but slightly less pretty
Dave Yates - nice
Ti/Al cracky...but then again steel rusts so that's pretty even so long as they are double butted...which they mostly are not.
Bob Jackson - nice but the badge is a St George's Cross so I can't. I just can't.

I think I'm back where I started, maybe I should go to the Dark Side(tm)

[MercuryKev]

I'm almost as confused as I was when I asked the question - would the ride be better on the Thorn compared with the 72degree parallel 531ST frame of the Raleigh....

So here goes:
Mercian - still a bit pricey I think,
Condor - nice but they are southern poofs (I've heard)
Thorn - nice but slightly less pretty
Dave Yates - nice
Ti/Al cracky...but then again steel rusts so that's pretty even so long as they are double butted...which they mostly are not.
Bob Jackson - nice but the badge is a St George's Cross so I can't. I just can't.

I think I'm back where I started, maybe I should go to the Dark Side(tm)

Lumping Ti in with Al is really missing the point and I'm not sure what the issue with plain gauge Ti vs double butted - it isn't steel so the construction methods don't have to be the same to produce a good light frame.

I think there's a reason what Ti is so prevalent nowadays in audax circles and it's not just a fad, it's because the are really well suited the long days on the bike in all weathers.  Nevertheless, you can get some really nice looking steel bikes, so if that's your thing great; however, you shouldn't then discount some of the nicer Ti brands such as Van Nicholas, Enigma, or Sabbath - all who have lifetime guarantees so if the frame should break they replace it. 

[trumpet]

Thorn do offer:

“Buy a THORN derailleur geared bike with
complete confidence. Ride it for 14 days and,
and, if you are not totally delighted, return it to
us, either in person or safely packaged in a Thorn
bike box. I will promptly refund the purchase price of
the bike, including any or all of the items from the bike
build menu, but not including pedals or accessories.
How is that for confidence in the quality and
performance of our product?” Robin Thorn

[Tewdric]

You could get a hand made frame from David Yates for £950 quid.  I'm sure that other UK frame builders (Bob Jackson, Burls etc) are a similar price

A Dave Yates would be my choice I have to say.  Start with a cheaper gruppo if you have to, although I think you could build something with 105, Chrina rims and Pro finishing kit for the sort of money you are talking about.  Bob Jackson do some good value frames too and are worth a look.

I have built up two Thorn Audax Mk 3s now for friends and they are very nicely made and a lovely ride too.  I think they have got a bit expensive for what they are now though.  I shou say my own Audax frame is a Bridgewater built custom Thorn 853 with conical tubes and tight clearances, and it's an absolute belter.

[rogerzilla]

Test ride first.  Thorns have funny handling with very quick steering.  Good path selection but bad for honking and riding hands-off.

To be fair, my old Nomad was much better fully loaded  than my Hewitt Cheviot, which is dreadful with 30lb of camping kit on the back.

[Trull]

Right then - how many titanium bikes are there on yacf?

My mate's got a litespeed mtb, I'm not going to rule them out - particularly if there's a bunch that find them excellent. After all the thing that killed Black Bess was moisture induced corrosion. Which would not happen on the Ti.

Of course Dave Yates is a very serious option - I'm occasionally down that far South, so getting fitted should be do-able. And even if I initially have to compromise on the odd component, that can surely be sorted over time.

[fuaran]

The Thorn seems rather expensize for what is a pretty basic/heavy steel frame.
If you want steel, I think something like the Genesis Croix de Fer is smuch nicer. Or the Raleigh Clubman or Dawes Century SE are a bit cheaper.

[bikenrrd]

Or the Genesis Equilibrium - Reynolds 725, carbon fork, £330.
No clearance to fit a rack, though it does have mudguard clearance.  2013 paint job is nice, too.

[DrMekon]

Despite riding a touring bike, I have found myself at the sharp end of a few of the audax I've done. I see more carbon bikes there (Treks, Pinarellos, Bianchi, etc), and nobody has complained about comfort.

I'm currently torn between a Domane 4.3 and a Madone 3.5. The former takes 25mm tyres and guards, the latter 23mm and guards. The Domane has the decoupled seat-tube that looks neat, but I'd need to be convinced it wasn't going to go creaky on me. I could get a Woodrup with Tiagra for similar money, but pretty as it'll look, I really want something properly light and nippy. Plan is to do LEL on whatever one I end up with.

[steveh]

Right then - how many titanium bikes are there on yacf?

My mate's got a litespeed mtb, I'm not going to rule them out - particularly if there's a bunch that find them excellent. After all the thing that killed Black Bess was moisture induced corrosion. Which would not happen on the Ti.

Of course Dave Yates is a very serious option - I'm occasionally down that far South, so getting fitted should be do-able. And even if I initially have to compromise on the odd component, that can surely be sorted over time.

One vote here for Van Nicholas Yukon - Tiagra triple, OP on Ultegra, guards, rack, lights.
Really hard to tell how it compares to other bikes I've had, must confess I've not thought "OMG how smooth is this?" at any point.
Recently bought a Ribble Evo Pro Carbon and to be honest I'm finding that more fun to ride.
I'm seriously thinking about the Sportive 365 that was on the Cycle Show or Interbike coverage recently, maybe to replace the Yukon or as n+1.
I doubt that helps at all but it's my 2p worth anyhoo
Steve

[Trull]

Well I  was speaking to Spa today, and need to get myself down to Harrogate soon to try a couple... get fitted up etc. I will also mosey over to Edinburgh Bike and speak about the VN Yukon.
Hey Steve - did you mean the Ribble Sportive 365?

[PAC]

Refurb the Randonneur...a proper classic

[Trull]

Aye - the refurb option is also very sensible although here's the list of problems:
Frozen in kit:
pedals to campag triple (both sides)
canti bolts to bosses
quil to steerer

Corrosion bubbles under toptube at steerer, rear stays, toptube/down tube.

Gears occasionally skip out (very disconcerting if trying to honk)

Maybe I should just man up and get it to LBS...

[Bledlow]

Oh dear. That sounds like a hell of a lot of work. I can see why you're looking at a new bike. Might be worth hanging on to the Randonneur even after getting something new, & seeing if it can be saved.

Right then - how many titanium bikes are there on yacf?

Loads 'n loads 'n loads. My Enigma Etape, Feline's Sabbath, & many, many more. My experience with the Enigma is that it's more comfortable over distances (though I've never ridden it more than 185 km) than my old Roberts (now owned by Woofage, who's done the refurbishing I didn't want to bother with), with the same saddle. I don't notice any difference in sprightliness.

There are a couple of owners of Spa Ti bikes round here (Reading, not YACF) who I've met. Neither does PBP AFAIK, but both do 100 mile plus rides & tell me their bikes are very comfortable. Very happy with their bikes. The Omega (pre-Enigma) owner on the Alan Furley Memorial 200 (I was on the 150) who I met at the Faccombe checkpoint last month, a week after he turned up at Mrs B's favourite country pub, was also very happy indeed with his Ti frame.

[Trull]

Thank you to all the helpful people that contributed to this thread. I've now received a new bike...

(drum roll)

Battaglin C12 with Campag Veloce jewellery

And taken it out for a damn good thrashing up the local 1:5 and its great. Much lighter than the old Randonneur and yet just as pleasant over uneven road but still stiff enough to not whip when honking uphill.

Most importantly as the frame is handmade by rolling carbon threads over the nubile thighs of dusky Italian girls its not mass produced like my sister's Boringman so has a higher swank factor. Yes I am that shallow.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Hmm. I wonder when we'll see a bike made of tobacco fibres? 

Congratulations, sounds lovely, hope you enjoy it for long.