Author Topic: Unofficial PBP  (Read 4030 times)

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2019, 09:03:04 am »
Yes it is legal to ride PBP at the same time as the official ride

Especially the French who may live along the 760 mile route and fancy taking a spin on their own roads at that particular time.
Garry Broad

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2019, 09:55:16 am »
Of course that only stands for events which require permission from the authorities.

Which is for example PBP

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2019, 11:28:50 am »
No, I'm not confusing the two. If, as on all UK Audax events (with the possible exception of LEL) there is no rider limit placed on rider numbers by authorities then there can be no moral impediment in the sense that unofficial riders will threaten the future of the event by swelling the event numbers beyond the limit imposed by authorities.

Unofficial riders using paid-for controls is immoral. Riders using tarmac and cafes isn't as it implies that for a given moment public resources are only to be used by entrants to a private fee paying event.

There have been suggestions that people even riding routes that coincide with routes used by an audax, regardless of when they are ridden, is "intellectual theft". This is clearly bollocks, and serves to demonstrate how out of touch with reality some audaxes are.

It's worth remembering that although audaxers get jolly excited about PBP, it is only about as big an event in terms of rider numbers as the average sportive. In the cycling world, audax is largely irrelevant.

SPB

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2019, 03:48:42 pm »
No, I'm not confusing the two....

Unofficial riders using paid-for controls is immoral.

Surely that'd be illegal, not just immoral.   There are laws against it.  Like obtaining services and goods by deception.

Using a gpx that someone has been created for the exclusive use of paying participants wouldn't be illegal.  There are no laws against it.  But it would be considered immoral.

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2019, 05:03:56 pm »
I suppose that would come down to what you would consider 'use'.  Are there laws against using a toilet in McDonald's if you have no intention of purchasing food? It amounts to the same thing, doesn't it?

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2019, 05:23:22 pm »
Using a gpx that someone has been created for the exclusive use of paying participants wouldn't be illegal.  There are no laws against it.  But it would be considered immoral.
Sorry. I don't think following a route described by a gpx file is immoral, whoever has created the file. It's a route description; no more, no less; and as has been said, the roads are free to ride, without the handicap of moral conflict.
I'm pleased to see all and every cyclist out on the roads. Confess I was not so pleased to see some LEL riders joined by a strong rider from St Ives who shamelessly (well the blokes showed no shame) offered her wheel to all and sundry (so I rode away from them  O:-) and got lost in Cambridge). On the plus side it would have been nice for the well built dad to have support and the riding companionship of his daughter (assumed :) ) on that last day after the 'winds'.
"9.9.3   Participants may ride singly or in groups and may pace each other but may not be paced by
any other cyclist [ie non-participant] or motor vehicle."
If I wish to use a loo in a pub or even a McDonalds (without being a customer), I will always ask permission. To use it without permission is impolite (but not immoral imo).

SPB

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2019, 06:53:42 pm »
Immoral isn't the word I'd use either for that scenario, but the distinction between illegal and immoral was under discussion so I stuck with the wording.

Personally, I'd say it's not the done thing to use a gpx file that was created exclusively for paying people.  I'd say if you coincidentally chose to ride the same roads at the same time that'd be nobody's business but your own.  But if you used something prepared for paying participants then you'd be taking the Mick.

WRT services at controls I was thinking more of any food that might be laid on.  But, since toilets have come up, if an organiser has paid to hire a village hall for use by the participants and you just waltz in and use the loo without asking then I see that as no different to someone walking into your house and using your loo without asking.  It'd be a tort not a crime, but I still wouldn't do it. 

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2019, 08:17:33 pm »
Using a gpx that someone has been created for the exclusive use of paying participants wouldn't be illegal.  There are no laws against it.  But it would be considered immoral.

Are we talking about riding the route the same day as the ride (i.e. as if on the event), or riding the route some other day? Because you'd be hard pressed to find many people who consider the latter immoral.

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2019, 09:15:57 pm »
Yes it is legal to ride PBP at the same time as the official ride

Especially the French who may live along the 760 mile route and fancy taking a spin on their own roads at that particular time.

This is the case for PBP.  Don't try it with L,Etape du Tour unless you particularly enjoy arguing the point with the gendarmes who are closing the route. I think the final day of the Ardechoise may be a similar case, although the only people I know who have ridden the final day of the Ardechoise were in the event. It doesn't matter who you are or where you live, when the gendarmes close the road for an event, any event, they close it and that's that. (This happens to me one afternoon of the year for the final of the Tour du Limousin, every year).

No, I'm not confusing the two. If, as on all UK Audax events (with the possible exception of LEL) there is no rider limit placed on rider numbers by authorities then there can be no moral impediment in the sense that unofficial riders will threaten the future of the event by swelling the event numbers beyond the limit imposed by authorities.


It's worth remembering that although audaxers get jolly excited about PBP, it is only about as big an event in terms of rider numbers as the average sportive. In the cycling world, audax is largely irrelevant.

I think you need to justify that last bit. I have been googling for cyclosportive rider numbers without much success but the biggest would appear to be L'Etape with 15000 participants being quoted. The Ardechoise used to be 14000 and probably still is since that was the limit that the organisers reckoned to be safe for the roads and organisation. The Marmotte would appear to be about 6000. All these events are one day events and don't get much publicity (won't make national news for example) so the average public don't even know what they are, let alone where (difficult with L'Etape which changes venue every year). PBP for all it's amateurism does get it's bit on the national news.
In size how do you want to make the calculation? Riders x distance? Riders x time? Budget?

I think the "average" sportive in France is probably about 1000 riders over one day and 200kms. VéloPassion used to produce a hit list with rider numbers but so far I have not found anything (perhaps because I am asking in french).

Bianchi Boy

  • Cycling is my doctor
  • Is it possible for a ride to be too long?
    • Reading Cycling Club
Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2019, 09:23:14 pm »
I suppose that would come down to what you would consider 'use'.  Are there laws against using a toilet in McDonald's if you have no intention of purchasing food? It amounts to the same thing, doesn't it?
Pushing the limits of t**t to the limit.

Do you want to make people join in what you and make a good thing happen or do or have everything going to anarchy?

BB
Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

SPB

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2019, 09:23:57 pm »
Using a gpx that someone has been created for the exclusive use of paying participants wouldn't be illegal.  There are no laws against it.  But it would be considered immoral.

Are we talking about riding the route the same day as the ride (i.e. as if on the event), or riding the route some other day? Because you'd be hard pressed to find many people who consider the latter immoral.

I think the discussion is on the former: doing it on the same day, at the same time as the organised event.  At least that's the assumption what I've based my comments on.

I was replying to a poster who'd said that would be illegal.  My point was only that it wouldn't be illegal, though it would be considered (by most) to be wrong.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2019, 10:43:07 pm »

Unofficial riders using paid-for controls is immoral. Riders using tarmac and cafes isn't as it implies that for a given moment public resources are only to be used by entrants to a private fee paying event.


I'd disagree. Many an Audax organiser will limit their ride numbers based on things like the cafe at CP3 can't cope of 300 riders turn up, so let's limit it to 200. If you start using all the same controls, at all the same times, you're just being an arse. It may be legal, but imagine if someone ends up over time, as you slowed down how fast they could get through that cafe control that the organisers put so much effort in to making sure matched ride capacity? I'd say riding the same route, using the same controls, at the same time makes someone an arse, plain and simple.

--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2019, 10:55:06 pm »
I'd never cause somebody to be out of time because I was in front of them in a cafe queue, because I never get anywhere near a time limit, and if the putative rider could get anywhere near me neither would they.

Thus I could, should I wish so to do, ride the route of an audax on the same day and at the same time without fear of moral turpitude. O:-)

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2019, 11:09:07 pm »
Immoral isn't the word I'd use either for that scenario, but the distinction between illegal and immoral was under discussion so I stuck with the wording.

Personally, I'd say it's not the done thing to use a gpx file that was created exclusively for paying people.


When it comes to a GPX file or Routesheet (or any other way of publishing a route), it may be both Illegal and Immoral through the protections of copyright law (which protects the moral rights of the author by making unauthorised copying illegal) applying to it and the method of its release may apply distribution restrictions to further make it a breach of contract to possess if you don't have an entry.

When it comes to UK sportives, the situation depends on the form of road closure applied for, if it's only a traffic class restriction then the road is open to the classes of traffic not stated as restricted; you could ride to the shops without breeching the restriction. Though doing the full route and going through the start/finish is rather dickish.

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2019, 11:16:37 pm »
I'd never cause somebody to be out of time because I was in front of them in a cafe queue, because I never get anywhere near a time limit, and if the putative rider could get anywhere near me neither would they.

Hang on, that doesn't work! Arriving early means you delay *more* people, assuming they're running flat out, and means you get first dibs the best cake and someone who entered might not get any...

(Clearly there's moral purity to being Lanterne Rouge)

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2019, 11:19:23 pm »
So is it immoral to select a section of the PBP route 1200kms long, ride it to get the most benefit of the other riders and claim a DIY 1200? Using the PBP waymarking of course.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2019, 11:20:37 pm »
It's hardly unusual for two groups of cyclists to be in the same cafe at the same time by coincidence. If one group is doing an audax and the other is out for a less structured leisure ride or on tour, does that give the audaxers priority? It is unusual for there to be no non-cyclists in the cafe at the same time. Same question applies.

GPX files don't just come from organisers. If your mate rode an audax (or a sportive, same would apply) last year and has been enthusing about so that you fancy following the same route but without the hassle of time limits and tying yourself down to a particular day in advance, is it in any way wrong for you to use your mate's gpx to do so?
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2019, 07:16:31 am »
I suppose that would come down to what you would consider 'use'.  Are there laws against using a toilet in McDonald's if you have no intention of purchasing food? It amounts to the same thing, doesn't it?
Pushing the limits of t**t to the limit.

Do you want to make people join in what you and make a good thing happen or do or have everything going to anarchy?

BB

Have you sat in a packed McDonald's? It's the very definition of anarchy.

The last time I used a toilet in one during an audax I found it had a calming influence on everyone.

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2019, 08:19:58 am »
I suppose one group that might be tempted to do an 'unofficial' PBP are those who've failed to finish in previous events.

They paid for the use of controls in their year of failure, so they could argue to themselves the they're just swapping their use of the course and controls for those who are dropping out in the current event.

Perhaps that could work if they used McDonalds' up to the point where they packed in the past.

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2019, 08:38:39 am »

When it comes to a GPX file or Routesheet (or any other way of publishing a route), it may be both Illegal and Immoral through the protections of copyright law (which protects the moral rights of the author by making unauthorised copying illegal) applying to it and the method of its release may apply distribution restrictions to further make it a breach of contract to possess if you don't have an entry.

I think the copyright issue would be if you copied and redistributed, particularly for profit. If you just came across a gpx file and followed the route yourself is that more like finding a book a deciding to pick it up a read it? my

Quote
When it comes to UK sportives, the situation depends on the form of road closure applied for, if it's only a traffic class restriction then the road is open to the classes of traffic not stated as restricted; you could ride to the shops without breeching the restriction. Though doing the full route and going through the start/finish is rather dickish.

Sometimes I see sportive direction signs, quite common for sportives to go through my home town, and I'll decide to follow the signs for no other reason than it'll be a bit of a mystery tour on roads I know well. I may chat to other riders who are doing the sportive but I chat to almost every cyclist I pass anyway.

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2019, 10:21:48 am »
I suppose one group that might be tempted to do an 'unofficial' PBP are those who've failed to finish in previous events.

They paid for the use of controls in their year of failure, so they could argue to themselves the they're just swapping their use of the course and controls for those who are dropping out in the current event.

Perhaps that could work if they used McDonalds' up to the point where they packed in the past.

That would be a sub-set of previously non-homologated  riders. Amongst those riders who have packed for various reasons, such as illness or a failure to meet time limits (not something of which I can claim even the remotest experience), will be those who packed out of sheer mindnumbing boredom.

They are unlikely to return as either official or unofficial riders.

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2019, 11:02:25 am »
I suppose that would come down to what you would consider 'use'.  Are there laws against using a toilet in McDonald's if you have no intention of purchasing food? It amounts to the same thing, doesn't it?

I think I would consider using a toilet in McDonalds less immoral than joining an audax without paying. The analogy only really works if the whole point of going to McDonalds was to gather there with other likeminded individuals for an organised, fun, communal shitting event.
It is what it is. It's not what it's not, so it must be what it is.

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2019, 11:15:05 am »

 ;D

How many audaxers would it take to qualify? I'm saying two.


Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2019, 11:17:29 am »
That would be a hazardous event. Second only to eating the burgers.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2019, 01:31:16 pm »

When it comes to a GPX file or Routesheet (or any other way of publishing a route), it may be both Illegal and Immoral through the protections of copyright law (which protects the moral rights of the author by making unauthorised copying illegal) applying to it and the method of its release may apply distribution restrictions to further make it a breach of contract to possess if you don't have an entry.

I think the copyright issue would be if you copied and redistributed, particularly for profit. If you just came across a gpx file and followed the route yourself is that more like finding a book a deciding to pick it up a read it? my

Quote
When it comes to UK sportives, the situation depends on the form of road closure applied for, if it's only a traffic class restriction then the road is open to the classes of traffic not stated as restricted; you could ride to the shops without breeching the restriction. Though doing the full route and going through the start/finish is rather dickish.

Sometimes I see sportive direction signs, quite common for sportives to go through my home town, and I'll decide to follow the signs for no other reason than it'll be a bit of a mystery tour on roads I know well. I may chat to other riders who are doing the sportive but I chat to almost every cyclist I pass anyway.

In order to use a route sheet you must print it, in order to use a GPX file you must copy it or produce a derivative work.
The picking up a book is analogous to the organizer leaving printed copies of the route sheet lying around for everyone to pick up.

Sportive signs are a tad different, they're up there, "published" for people to follow, in order to control who can follow them, they'd need to have the road closed to all non-entrants.
Legally as they aren't prescribed by the TSRGD rules they are illegal obstructions of the highway...

This is of course hair splitting on the subject.