Author Topic: Dry arse.  (Read 4418 times)

Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2019, 11:56:24 am »
It seems women's specific waterproof MTB shorts are few and far between. I couldn't find the women's version of the Humvee on the Endura website, so emailed them:
[...]

Seems they don't make a women's version.

I emailed back asking why they think this is acceptable in 2019. I await their disinterested reply...

To be fair, they don't even do a version of the Humvee that fits women who have both  a) lard  and  b) quads.


That seems normal for virtually all female specific cycling clothing. We've given up trying to find cycling clothes that fit Mrs Trekker and have gone down the general outdoors walking equipment as that industry seems to acknowledge women aren't all stick thin.
Duct tape is magic and should be worshipped

Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2019, 11:58:39 am »

Women's fit water proof shorts seem to be a rarity.


I've been mulling over some of these for a while: https://www.rutlandcycling.com/clothing/legwear/scott-trail-mtn-dryo-50-womens-shorts-black_466815

Haven't (yet) taken the plunge, so I don't know if they're any good - but they're cheap compared to some.

Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2019, 12:15:24 pm »
Evans Cycles are selling Madison DTE Women’s Waterproof Shorts

https://www.evanscycles.com/madison-dte-women-s-waterproof-shorts-EV361865

Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2019, 12:24:22 pm »
Mudguards if it's coming from the wheel, Rainlegs[1] if it's coming from the sky, drain hole if your hardshell recumbent seat is collecting run-off.  (Pay no attention to the smug velomobile riders, they'll get their comeuppance on the next big climb.)
we avoid hills for a reason.

But I actually have a pretty leaky Velomobile. But am still drier than other cyclists, just not on my chest and face.
My blog on cycling in Germany and eating German cake – http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk


Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2019, 12:30:45 pm »
I think you may be overestimating just how partial that is, I doubt it's as much as 50% compared to full guards.  Fashion or a dry arse, your choice.

Nah, I tested it...

I stuck on a pair of crud roadracer mk3's to my bike over the winter, and took the bag off. There was no noticeable difference in the splatter pattern up my back between the two. The pattern starts about around my bra strap and goes up. The lower back and bum gets next to nothing.

My instinctive reaction to that is "try some real mudguards", but...


Quote
My bike doesn't have a brake bridge to attach guards too, so I am limited in what guards I could fit if I wanted to. Especially as I run 32-42 mm tyres.

...Would appear to make that difficult, unless you fitted a rack you could use as scaffolding, maybe.   :-\

OTOH, I'm still a firm believer in the "modify the bike to suite the rider, rather than modify the rider to suit the bike" approach.


If you're getting splattered from your bra strap upwards, that must be from the very back of the wheel, surely?  In which case I think you either need a full mudguard with AUK-compliant flap, or something long and wide above the wheel.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Dormant but requires tea
Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2019, 01:19:20 pm »
Or a bike which can take proper mudguards Or get your current bike adapted by having eg Argos braze in a mount there?
The unwilling rider and the one who leaves each control in turn without reluctance, with no desire to come back, obviously cannot be making the same journey, even though their brevets are identical.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2019, 01:21:17 pm »
Or a bike which can take proper mudguards Or get your current bike adapted by having eg Argos braze in a mount there?

This is how bikes turn into touring bikes.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2019, 08:14:35 pm »

My bike doesn't have a brake bridge to attach guards too, so I am limited in what guards I could fit if I wanted to.....

a couple of P clips and a bit of meccano will sort that out

cheers

If this is the Vagabond, I have just looked at a picture and the 2018 Vagabond has mudguard eyes and the rack mounts ideally placed to fit a substitute brake bridge for hanging the rear guard. The only problem that I see is the clearance between seat tube and wheel and I would presume absence of a chainstay bridge, and there are ways of getting round that with a guard ending higher up above the rear mech and a suitable collar. It even makes it possible to rotate the guard towards the back to come a bit lower, although that is sub-optimal compared to a decent mudflap. Of course if the bike concerned is the race bike then I don't know what I'm talking about  but otherwise if it was mine and I needed guards it would get them (bodged in my case - I have my reputation to think of  ??? ). Probably wouldn't even need the brazing torch!!

Edit: I didn't think Crudcatchers went wide enough for QG's usual choice of tyres; certainly my Raceblades (wide version but from a few years ago) only just cover 28mm. Finding guards to cover 40x622 and over could be the real problem (wide guards in 26" don't seem to be such a problem). If the guards aren't wide enough to do the job properly then the arse will remain wet (all the ingenuity in the world can't overturn the laws of physics!)

Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2019, 01:18:19 pm »
Taking a pair of scissors to my Altura waterpoof trousers, is looking like the least worst option of the lot.
Don't chop too generously, at least to start with.

My experience is that it's better that they are long enough to cover the knee at the top of the pedal stroke.
The end of the shorts leg works back and forth as you pedal, and if you get rain on the top of the knee, the dampness gets spread upwards by the movement (not a lot, but it's better avoided if easy).
If it irritates behind the knee, you can cut the back a bit shorter.

I started on rainlegs, but non-breathable fabric, unsealed seams, and water running off the edge all meant that they got replaced by waterproof shorts for all but commuting. I'm now using what got replaced by Gore C5 waterproof shorts.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2019, 05:19:19 pm »

My instinctive reaction to that is "try some real mudguards", but...

Do I have to reiterate yet again just how much I detest mudguards? They are a right total complete, utter PAIN IN THE ARSE, and for my use case wholly unsuitable.

Quote
...Would appear to make that difficult, unless you fitted a rack you could use as scaffolding, maybe.   :-\

OTOH, I'm still a firm believer in the "modify the bike to suite the rider, rather than modify the rider to suit the bike" approach.

Have I mentioned how much I dislike racks too?

Quote
If you're getting splattered from your bra strap upwards, that must be from the very back of the wheel, surely?  In which case I think you either need a full mudguard with AUK-compliant flap, or something long and wide above the wheel.

Or a waterproof jacket. Take off at end of ride, let dry, shake off dust. Done. No rattling, no gumming with mud or snow, no weird noises from cross winds. But my summer jacket doesn't go down far enough to cover my arse. I must admit to being less than pleased with the rapha waterproof I've got. They did replace it for me this week as it hadn't kept the rain out at the weekend, but I'm thinking for next summer I'm going to go for something that is longer, has a hood, and a slightly looser fit. For longer rides, the comfort increase is worth the penalty of a baggier, heavier unit.

Or a bike which can take proper mudguards Or get your current bike adapted by having eg Argos braze in a mount there?

Yes, I should sell my bike, and replace it with a Pashley Guvner, with 3 speed sturmey archer, drum brakes, ply wood mudguards, front and back racks, sit up and beg handlebars, and a carbide lamp...

Or pay out lots to have someone welding bits to the current bike...

Or I could cut up a €40 euro pair of trousers...

Or a bike which can take proper mudguards Or get your current bike adapted by having eg Argos braze in a mount there?

This is how bikes turn into touring bikes.

Or Oma fiets...

If this is the Vagabond, I have just looked at a picture and the 2018 Vagabond has mudguard eyes and the rack mounts ideally placed to fit a substitute brake bridge for hanging the rear guard. The only problem that I see is the clearance between seat tube and wheel and I would presume absence of a chainstay bridge, and there are ways of getting round that with a guard ending higher up above the rear mech and a suitable collar. It even makes it possible to rotate the guard towards the back to come a bit lower, although that is sub-optimal compared to a decent mudflap. Of course if the bike concerned is the race bike then I don't know what I'm talking about  but otherwise if it was mine and I needed guards it would get them (bodged in my case - I have my reputation to think of  ??? ). Probably wouldn't even need the brazing torch!!

I don't need guards, I just need waterproof shorts, or a longer jacket, or both...

There's loads of space between the tyre and the seat tube, it's one of the things I love about this frame. Means I don't have to stop to clear the snow out as much. Means I can fit the studded tyres in winter, and the GP5k's in summer. I'd like to not gum up that space with some piece of plastic.

Quote
Edit: I didn't think Crudcatchers went wide enough for QG's usual choice of tyres; certainly my Raceblades (wide version but from a few years ago) only just cover 28mm. Finding guards to cover 40x622 and over could be the real problem (wide guards in 26" don't seem to be such a problem). If the guards aren't wide enough to do the job properly then the arse will remain wet (all the ingenuity in the world can't overturn the laws of physics!)

The box claims up to 35mm. I got them as an experiment, and they confirmed everything I already hated about guards.

Depending on the ride I use either
- 32mm GP5K (Summer)
- 28mm GP 4 Seasons (Spring and Autumn, purchased in error, had wanted 32mm, will replace with 32's when these die)
- 37mm Conti Topcontact winter (Winter below 5°, but snow/rain/ice isn't forecast)
- 40mm Schwalbe G+One allround (offroad inclinations, spring through Autumn, when I can be arsed to swap the gp5k's off)
- 42mm Schwalbe Marathon Winters (ice ice baby!)

I really love how the vagabond can take all of these, how I can bomb round on the MTB tracks, or do a 300k audax. All on one bike (I may even try cyclocross on it!)

Don't chop too generously, at least to start with.

My experience is that it's better that they are long enough to cover the knee at the top of the pedal stroke.
The end of the shorts leg works back and forth as you pedal, and if you get rain on the top of the knee, the dampness gets spread upwards by the movement (not a lot, but it's better avoided if easy).
If it irritates behind the knee, you can cut the back a bit shorter.

The movement of the fabric of the trousers over the knee cap over 260km last winter really buggered my knees. It's one of the reasons I'm not just opting for using waterproof trousers. So I'm gonna cut to be at least just above the knee. I'm not fussed if my thighs get damp. I just want to keep the area that is basically contacted by the chamois dry, my legs I don't care about.

Quote

I started on rainlegs, but non-breathable fabric, unsealed seams, and water running off the edge all meant that they got replaced by waterproof shorts for all but commuting. I'm now using what got replaced by Gore C5 waterproof shorts.

Gore appear to no longer make fully waterproof cycling over shorts for women.

Neither do Vaude.

Scott's don't go big enough...
Neither do Madison's...
and Maloja's largest size is just about big enough for my thigh...

Apparently there's not enough women, especially larger women, that like riding in the wet enough to drive demand...

*sigh*

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2019, 05:20:14 pm »
They don't really have to be cycling shorts if they're to go over padded shorts, do they? Could you find something for hiking, say?

Hiking clothing isn't designed for being sat in for long periods of time.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Dormant but requires tea
Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2019, 05:47:21 pm »
The unwilling rider and the one who leaves each control in turn without reluctance, with no desire to come back, obviously cannot be making the same journey, even though their brevets are identical.

Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2019, 06:06:49 pm »
Do you wear a pair of outer shorts over an inner padded liner?  If so, I'd consider washing the outer shorts in one of Nikwax's fabric waterproofing products.  There are various versions but I generally use T.X. Direct with normal clothing and it works well.

https://www.nikwax.com/en-gb/products/productdetail.php?productid=3&itemid=-1&fabricid=-1

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2019, 06:23:24 pm »
Do you wear a pair of outer shorts over an inner padded liner?  If so, I'd consider washing the outer shorts in one of Nikwax's fabric waterproofing products.  There are various versions but I generally use T.X. Direct with normal clothing and it works well.

https://www.nikwax.com/en-gb/products/productdetail.php?productid=3&itemid=-1&fabricid=-1

No, I wear a pair of rapha shorts.

I'm looking at options for a waterproof outer short to wear over the top.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Dormant but requires tea
Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2019, 07:04:27 pm »

My instinctive reaction to that is "try some real mudguards", but...

Do I have to reiterate yet again just how much I detest mudguards? They are a right total complete, utter PAIN IN THE ARSE, and for my use case wholly unsuitable.
What actually is your use case? In addition to wanting a dry arse and not wanting mudguards. You say you get wheel splatter from your bra strap up, which suggests the shorts are not getting wet from below. So it's either general road spray from passing vehicles or rain from the top soaking in and eventually soaking the chamois – presumably a bit of both, but if you're mostly on fietspads then there'll be correspondingly less spray. So maybe Rain Legs would work, by keeping the top of the shorts dry?
The unwilling rider and the one who leaves each control in turn without reluctance, with no desire to come back, obviously cannot be making the same journey, even though their brevets are identical.

Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2019, 07:34:07 pm »
Do you wear a pair of outer shorts over an inner padded liner?  If so, I'd consider washing the outer shorts in one of Nikwax's fabric waterproofing products.  There are various versions but I generally use T.X. Direct with normal clothing and it works well.

https://www.nikwax.com/en-gb/products/productdetail.php?productid=3&itemid=-1&fabricid=-1

No, I wear a pair of rapha shorts.

I'm looking at options for a waterproof outer short to wear over the top.

J

I'm not a girl, but I do have an arse and I'm betting this combination will just be worse. It's probably great for a trip to the shops, but 18 hours of randonneuring is a different thing, and from my experience (extensive, but waning in relevance as I've kinda retired) you really really only want ONE layer between your arse and your saddle. Anything else causes inter-layer friction, prevents fabric breathing (that you've paid a premium for - modern fabrics are fantastic) and is a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.

Just take a look at photos of miriad randonneurs who have gone before you. They nearly all, to a man and woman, use mudguards. Go figure.

Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2019, 08:11:30 pm »

Gore appear to no longer make fully waterproof cycling over shorts for women.

Neither do Vaude.


Not listed on their website before, but the "Drop" shorts seem to be available on a few different websites, e.g. here (and Amazon seem to have XL ones in a rather garish colour very cheap; other sizes and colours are much more expensive, in true Amazon random pricing style).

I almost bought some of the Gore women's ones when they were being sold off cheap as they were discontinued. Of course I didn't actually get around to buying any... :facepalm:

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2019, 08:13:40 pm »
(and Amazon seem to have XL ones in a rather garish colour very cheap

 :o

I suppose that's better than having the red and black the other way round...
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Dormant but requires tea
Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2019, 09:14:24 pm »
They are a bit noobab, aren't they. My nephew recently rode from London to Paris for a breast cancer charity. The riders were given jersey and shorts in the foundation's colours; I haven't seem them but apparently the shorts are bright pink with black stripes up the side. However, he had a dry arse the whole ride thanks to the weather.
The unwilling rider and the one who leaves each control in turn without reluctance, with no desire to come back, obviously cannot be making the same journey, even though their brevets are identical.

Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2019, 10:49:07 pm »
I don't like mudguards very much either.
But I put them on most of my bikes because I really like having a dry arse.
Same with gloves, I'm not a big fan of them, but I like warm hands..
I'm not that keen on oil but I like my chain not to squeak. I don't like pumps but I find my bike more comfortable with air in the tyres....

Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2019, 11:53:22 pm »
Do I have to reiterate yet again just how much I detest mudguards? They are a right total complete, utter PAIN IN THE ARSE, and for my use case wholly unsuitable.
J
Again?  What, where, when?  Not on this thread.
Did you start detesting them before you tested them and proved they didn't work or after? 
As for your use case - the scenario in the initial post was a 300 k Audax, there is no disadvantage in that case and they're easy enough to remove and refit as your use case changes.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2019, 12:20:34 am »
Quixoticgeek is also into endurance racing, which I think differs from audax in terms of what is considered cool gets prioritised for performance vs long-term practicality.  I can certainly see that while mudguards are a no-brainer for those attempting the Fecund Ferret RTTY series, they might be more trouble than they're worth on the TCR (especially if you've already got luggage doing most of the job).

The tyre clearance issue for studs, snow etc. is a different trade-off, and in my mind one that's most effectively achieved by n+1.

What I can't see is how endurance riding in anything overtrousersy works.  Something's surely going to rub?

On the gripping hand, if it's not actually spray from the wheel causing the problem, but run-off from a suboptimal jacket, then mudguards aren't actually the solution, no matter how wonderful we might think they are.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #47 on: August 23, 2019, 11:18:29 am »
Quixoticgeek is also into endurance racing, which I think differs from audax in terms of what is considered cool gets prioritised for performance vs long-term practicality.  I can certainly see that while mudguards are a no-brainer for those attempting the Fecund Ferret RTTY series, they might be more trouble than they're worth on the TCR (especially if you've already got luggage doing most of the job).

The tyre clearance issue for studs, snow etc. is a different trade-off, and in my mind one that's most effectively achieved by n+1.

What I can't see is how endurance riding in anything overtrousersy works.  Something's surely going to rub?

On the gripping hand, if it's not actually spray from the wheel causing the problem, but run-off from a suboptimal jacket, then mudguards aren't actually the solution, no matter how wonderful we might think they are.

After due consideration it seems that compromises have to be made:

Rain is sub-optimal (for cycling) but sometimes can't be avoided (speaking as one who lives in a country with regular 4 month droughts it is less sub-optimal than one might imagine).
Mudguards are the sub-optimal solution chosen by a lot of non-sporting cycling disciplines (and one or two sporting ones if one accepts audax as sporting) but is not an acceptable compromise here.
The vast majority of sporting cycling disciplines accept a wet arse as a price to pay for not using mudguards. Depending on the length and nature of the sporting event the type of waterproof jacket will vary from sophisticated to non-existant.
The vast majority of sporting events are shorter in duration than audax or ultra-racing events so participants suffer correspondingly less with their wet backsides.
The percentage of world cycling time and of world cycling expenditure devoted to audax and ultra-racing disciplines is very small compared to the whole (someone care to give me a figure?) limiting the incentive of manufacturers to produce specific equipment (even though these disciplines may actually spend considerably more time in adverse conditions than other cycling activities - although I am not sure about that).

 Given all of that if QG does not accept mudguards (her right to do so), does not want a wet arse, does not want to avoid riding in the rain (not inclines to DNS - or use the bus to commute) and can't find a readily available commercial solution, then there remains only one possibility - create the solution yourself. This could be making overshorts, finding a man's design breathable rainshort in a large size and either taking needle and thread to modify it to her shape or finding a dressmaker to do it for her, or in the extreme sourcing fabric and making her own from scratch. (Don't laugh, many a commercial product has started from that basic process - and a few successful companies as well). Just make sure your design is well protected from copying.

North America having a potentially bigger pool of ladies in this situation, there may be a forum the other side of the ditch with a solution that we don't know about or a small manufacturer capable of responding better to your demands than in Europe, not something I would know about.

Edited to lengthen the drought!

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2019, 02:44:09 pm »
If mudguards really are off the table then a bike with a very fat down tube can make them less necessary. My dad's carbon norco cross bike has a down tube the girth of a gorilla's forearm. Not tried it in anger but I bet it would help keep a dry front much better than my own slim tubed bike especially with a saddlebag and frame bag on it.

My roobike has a fender in the style below. It's not the most effective one in the world but has no issue with foot rub, frame rub etc, it is fit and go. I also extended the bottom of it with some old milk bottle and zip ties, I have a nice dry bum so long as I'm doing straight lines and not weaving around with the front wheel too much.
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD


Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Dry arse.
« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2019, 02:55:44 pm »
If mudguards really are off the table then a bike with a very fat down tube can make them less necessary. My dad's carbon norco cross bike has a down tube the girth of a gorilla's forearm. Not tried it in anger but I bet it would help keep a dry front much better than my own slim tubed bike especially with a saddlebag and frame bag on it.

My experience of racing the Red Baron without a front mudguard[1] in traditional dePreston conditions supports this: The wide bit of frame tube between the headset and seat that approximates the downtube of a DF bike does an admirable job of keeping the spray off the rider's crotch and face.  Lower legs and outer thighs still get a thorough splattering, as does the drivetrain, but that's fine because it's all over in a few hours.


[1] Marginal gains, innnit: While removing the mudguard is unlikely to have much aero/weight benefit, keeping it fitted is unlikely to have much keeping-things-clean benefit, as under race conditions the majority of the splatter is from the rider in front.  Especially if they're riding an unfaired trike[2].
[2] AKA 'mud fountain'.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...