The S word

[tonyh]

Sportives appear to be more like organised Marathons. Many thousands if not millions of people have dome and are aware of Marathons. So doing a marathon with a bike isn't a big step.

Audaxes seem to be a bit more like those mad endurance hill runners that all got lost in the weather in the spring. No one knows that kind of event exists and when they hear about it they think the participants are mad.

Spot on, Jaded.

(and, of course, it was only "outsiders" who thought that the runners got "lost". They didn't. They were good at what they were doing.)

[Greenbank]

I noticed quite a few of the waymarks around whilst out and about yesterday and today (and very professional they were too complete with little signs before the tricky turns).

'waymarks'? 'little signs'?

Martin, that is well 'andbag mate, bit too NuLabour, touch of the nanny state about if you ask me 

They aren't very "self sufficiency" either are they?

[SteveS]

Learnig lessons from the success of sportives is a good, but dangerous idea as they are very different animals. I've never ridden a sportive, but I've helped organise one last year (and will do again this year) and have a fair idea of the sort of riders who participate. I know that I'm not quick enough to feel part of a sportive, but I'll ride my hundreth mile as quick as my tenth mile. I've not ridden more than 200km yet, but I have ambitions and sportives will not help there. We had some of the signs turned by local kids in the sportive and it caused havoc amongst the non local riders and that'll never happen in an Audax.
A conversation with a cycling mate last week went; "Are you doing Sunday's sportive?" "No you'll all be too fast for me. Do you want to do a 200km in March?" "No I can't ride that far, 5 or 6 hours is about my limit"
If we try to market to sportive riders we'll end up with Audaxes becoming cotton wooled 5 hour thrashes. Better IMO to market Audax as the next step up - OK you can do a quick 100 miles so how about challenging yourself to 300/400/600km.

[Really Ancien]

Sportives are popular because they are expensive. The aim is to reach a condition of fitness where one makes a good showing. So the fact that the event has published times and good publicity is positive. The price puts more pressure on to get fit, usually amplified by having an expensive bike. The only time that Audax enters the same market is during a PBP year or with prestige events such as the BCM or LEL. Sportives are all very Cycling+, about the kit, nutrition and training regimes.
The irony is that no serious cyle racer is going to do a sportive, except for appearance money, but you stand every chance of meeting one on an early season Audax.

Damon.

[pumpkin]

Sportives are popular because they are expensive. The aim is to reach a condition of fitness where one makes a good showing. So the fact that the event has published times and good publicity is positive. The price puts more pressure on to get fit, usually amplified by having an expensive bike. The only time that Audax enters the same market is during a PBP year or with prestige events such as the BCM or LEL. Sportives are all very Cycling+, about the kit, nutrition and training regimes.
The irony is that no serious cyle racer is going to do a sportive, except for appearance money, but you stand every chance of meeting one on an early season Audax.

Damon.

How true. Neil Swithenbank from the SigmaSport Team was on the NW. Passage. I've done both Audaxes and Sportives. I love the Sportives because I don't have to think about the route but the standard of cycling is noticeably lower - freewheeling,cutting up, pushing past the traffic. Audaxes I enjoy because I can go fast if I want and it's surprising how fast the fixed riders/sandal wearers etc are going. Also the cameraderie is greater on Audax. But I HATE routesheets. NW Passage was fine because it was one side of A4 paper. But long rambling routesheets I detest and understand why people get a Garmin. On the foreign sportives, it's different again, with a sense of occasion and lot's of great kit with generally a v.high standard of riding. Gruppos form up whereas if you suggest forming a gruppo on a UK sportive, you are regarded in some wierd manner.

[Gandalf]

As someone who hasn't done an Audax yet it is the routesheet aspect which I find the biggest disincentive. 

What happens if you don't have a bar bag with a transparent map pocket?  I have visions of feverishly trying to memorise chunks of the routesheet like an actor learning lines.

[Andrij]

As someone who hasn't done an Audax yet it is the routesheet aspect which I find the biggest disincentive. 

What happens if you don't have a bar bag with a transparent map pocket?  I have visions of feverishly trying to memorise chunks of the routesheet like an actor learning lines.

My routesheet is held by an A5 clipboard.  Holes were drilled allowing me to use cable ties to attach it to my bars; bits old tubes are used at the contact points.

[chris]

For my first Audax I zip tied a bulldog clip to the stem and held the route sheet with it. When you collect the Brevet card at the start of the event it comes in a waterporoofish bag, just fold the routesheet and put it in the bag, then put the bag in the bulldog clip.

I have seen others attach the routesheet to their fore arm with elastic bands. I guess that could work quite well for people who are short sighted.

I have visions of feverishly trying to memorise chunks of the routesheet like an actor learning lines.

My mate Chris (yes another Chris) has a photographic memory and can quite hapily read through the routesheet whilst I drive him to an event, put the routesheet in his saddle bag and then ride 200km, quoting each instruction word perfect, from memory as we get to each junction.

[dasmoth]

I did my first Audax without anything special to hold the routesheet.  Kept it in a jacket pocket or (at one point) wrapped around my water bottle.  I had to stop and refold it from time to time, but it didn't cause any problems.  Admittedly I did go off-course at one point, but I blame that on "I'm following other cyclists, I don't need to look at the routesheet" effect, and I've learned my lesson.

Admittedly, I do now own a bar-bag with a nice map-holder on top, and I rather like it.  There's still some stopping and re-folding required to keep the relevant parts visible.  Next time out, I may try re-formating the routesheet to keep more of it visible.

On Saturday I spotted one rider with a routesheet (in some kind of clear plastic cover) looped around his forearm.  Pretty near solution, although I'm not sure if I could get used to it myself.

GPS seems to be the neat solution.  I may have to give it a try one day.

[Greenbank]

As someone who hasn't done an Audax yet it is the routesheet aspect which I find the biggest disincentive. 

It really isn't a problem. Sitting on the bike and pedaling for x00km is much trickier.

What happens if you don't have a bar bag with a transparent map pocket?  I have visions of feverishly trying to memorise chunks of the routesheet like an actor learning lines.

Polaris Map Trap or Rixen & Kaul Minimap.

Either fold the routesheet and put it in the clear plastic ziploc bag you get at the start (and stop and refold it when necessary). Or cut them to size, number them and buy some sticky-backed clear plastic to laminate them (or use a proper laminator if you have one). That way you don't have to faff with the refolding. It's just a case of turning them over midway or moving the next one to the top. It also won't matter if it rains on them for hours (or you drip sweat on them).

For my first Audax I just had a bulldog clip around a brake cable, worked ok (it did flap about a bit) but not as good as the above.

I have a R&K Minimap mounted on the tri-bars on my Tempo although I've been relying purely on GPS for the last few rides as the tri-bars have been off the bike (being refitted today with a change from drops to bullhorns). I always carry the routesheet just in case something does go wrong though.

[Really Ancien]

I have some old Cinelli 'Spinaci' mini tri-bars and I fasten my laminated route sheet to them with a couple of big elastic bands.

Damon.

[urban_biker]

I started out in Audax by always plotting the map and loading to GPS.

These days I don't bother, its much too easy just to read the routesheet, plotting the course in advance just takes too long.

On the Sportive topic one of the things I like about audax is the self reliance aspect .

Anyway I suspect that Sportives would make me feel old and unfit, whereas audax makes me feel young and unfit!

[geraldc]

I’ve never done a sportive, so can only talk from impressions that I get from the press.
The big audax is PBP, a big sportive would be a TdF stage etc.
Audaxers test themselves against the course and other amateurs (irrespective if the amateur is hard as nails, or soft as sponge). Sportive riders test themselves against the course, and by some abstraction the professional athlete.

The marathon analogy for a sportive does fit. Unfortunately whereas people see a sportive as a marathon, they see an audax as 50/100/200 mile fun run.

Mudguards, speed limits and lights do give us a strange reputation. From the point of view of a sportive rider, you spend hundreds to shave grams of weight off your bike, then you’re ‘forced’ to put commuter comforts onto your race weapon. A bit like having a F1 car, and then driving it with a tartan blanket over your legs, and a tin of boiled sweets on the dash.

How many people on a hilly hundred or 200 would actually bother the 30kph avg speed? I think many people mistake the average for a top speed, which would also put many people off.

Audax also has a progression, some mistakenly see the 100s and 200s as the ‘beginner’ events, compared to the 400s, 600s and 1200s. 

In many ways, what attracts us to the audax, puts off many other riders. I like using my brain to read a routesheet (it distracts from the pain). Half my anecdotes are regarding off route errors, mechanicals or food at cafes.
The idea of riding really really hard for 5 or 6 hours following signs attached to lampposts, fuelled only by sports nutrition drink and energy gels really doesn’t appeal to me.

[vorsprung]

Different markets surely - there are no Sportives (AFAIK) above 199km and no (strict definition) Audaxes below 200km?

Tour of the Black Mountains( I think that's it's name) is over 200km and there are a few others
None over 300km as far as I know

The only reason it is a "problem" to AUK that people are riding sportifs instead of 100km audax is that the short events often bankroll the longer ones.  It's a plus point that more people are riding.  Maybe some of them will go on to do nice long audaxes.

Also when I've spoke to people about audax rides- long or short or whatever- the main thing that puts them off is the signage and "getting lost".  It's all very well saying that any idiot can read a route sheet but these people are not idiots and they do not want to be bothered with reading a route sheet, they want to follow arrows/each other.

I think AUK should change its rules to allow optional signage on rides less than 200k

[LiamFitz]

I have some old Cinelli 'Spinaci' mini tri-bars and I fasten my laminated route sheet to them with a couple of big elastic bands.

Damon.

I guess this is what marks out Audax as a broad church..

On one ride I did at night there was this guy with a home-made light box which back-lit the route sheet under a piece of magnifying perspex.  He had a couple of scrollers at the top and bottom so he could move the sheet easily as he rode.  And I think the whole thing was inside an old tobacco tin.  That's how you should spend cold winter nights and that's what garden sheds are for!

I probably agree that there are types of people who are attracted to different types of event...

Liam

[Manotea]

Having had my rant upthread, I can sympathise with Martin's plight. Having put so much time and effort into developing his events and the Grimpeur Du Sud series it must be galling to have a sportive on his turf. It really comes down to his motivation as an organiser and aspirations for his events.

[Gandalf]

I'm loving the route sheet tips, laminating seems a really good idea.

Sounds like you Audaxers have demolished another one of my excuses   

[Ian H]

I think AUK should change its rules to allow optional signage on rides less than 200k

There's no actual rule against signage.

[malrees2]

One important point IMHO is that sportives are beginning to attract the attention of the police. Within two years I believe they will have a notification system to abide by and a whole lot of other fuss.
Except for the occasional police car enquiry during night rides, as to what we are doing, audax exists in its own environment, without interference from authorities.
I would hate to think that AUK tries to appeal to large fields for 100km rides and as a result is lumped with sportives for a police notification/authorisation/costs!
M

[dehomag]

I think AUK should change its rules to allow optional signage on rides less than 200k

There's no actual rule against signage.

There are actual laws about signage though. It is usually illegal to put signs up wherever you want without permission or a permit.

[Manotea]

One important point IMHO is that sportives are beginning to attract the attention of the police. Within two years I believe they will have a notification system to abide by and a whole lot of other fuss.

This is a truely excellent point. As it is we operate below the radar. It could be that sportives will do for us all.

[Greenbank]

There are actual laws about signage though. It is usually illegal to put signs up wherever you want without permission or a permit.

How do sportives handle this? I'm guessing that the majority just put the signs up illegally for the day, and then take them down at the end.

[Ian H]

There are actual laws about signage though. It is usually illegal to put signs up wherever you want without permission or a permit.

True, but the waters have been muddied in recent years so that any TT organiser has to put up warning signs (without specific permission from the local  authority), and charity events always put up signs (as a result of risk assessment). To be frank, it's a bit of a mess, legally.

[should be cycling]

(New forum member - hello)

On the subject of map holders, I saw this simple DIY solution on the CTC forum, looks worth a try...

CTC Forum • View topic - DIY (audax) route card holder

Likely to be better than the "bulldog clips around the brake cables" solution I tried on my first audax last year

[Gandalf]

(New forum member - hello)

On the subject of map holders, I saw this simple DIY solution on the CTC forum, looks worth a try...

CTC Forum • View topic - DIY (audax) route card holder

Likely to be better than the "bulldog clips around the brake cables" solution I tried on my first audax last year

Hi de Hi and welcome to the Forum.  

Just had a look at your DIY solution, simple but very cunning.