Extended Calendar Events; A Marriage made in Heaven?

[mattc]

(BCM as a 700 from home?? Or just stay with the decorating AT home?)

That's not as insane as it sounds ...

Well actually it is! The problem is that he'll have to ride the hard part (600k across Wales) at the 'normal' speed.

The only upside of the 700k reduced speed would be a possible 6+ hour sleep stop at the finish* of the BCM, at which point he'd only have 50k to ride home anyway!

Some permutations work better than others ... (I think in general you need to bolt on a lot of distance either before or after, as in your example of SW15-to-Chepstow).

(*oh, he could have it at the start instead, but that doesn't really help much either ...)

[Greenbank]

100km before the BCM was what I was thinking. If you knock off the 100km ride to Chepstow in 5 hours you get 6 hours sleep (and 1 hour to faff in the morning before the BCM).

50km either side of the BCM doesn't give anything useful.

[Martin]

a 600+100 seems a bit pointless to me and not exactly what ECE's were set up for; but as long as John Ward is willing to create an event on the website for every possible permutation I suppose it's OK. The initial idea was just to create combined distances of those used for an SR but we've already had entries for longer than this.

BTW I didn't think the old DIY + cals were any different in terms of control times; it was still a combined event which used a calendar in the middle; not 2 or 3 separate ones. The main difference was that the calendar event with all its benefits vapourised at the end.

[PloddinPedro]

a 600+100 seems a bit pointless to me and not exactly what ECE's were set up for; but as long as John Ward is willing to create an event on the website for every possible permutation I suppose it's OK. The initial idea was just to create combined distances of those used for an SR but we've already had entries for longer than this.

If this translates into:"the ECE concept is encouraging people to ride longer distances", as a "long distance cycling" organisation this equals a good thing, yes?

[PloddinPedro]

.......... there is still a requirement to ride at a reasonable pace and maintain intake of food and drink etc, so controls at a maximum spacing of 70km should be respected.....

This raises another question (sorry Martin!) that has occurred to me. When composing DIYs, I quite like to keep the number of controls to a minimum. A perfect arrangement would be: Start -> one control -> Finish. That way I can graze, sleep, or not, etc. on the fly and not have to worry about getting to places before they shut, etc. But I've wondered whether, if I were to submit such a route, it would be disqualified on the aforesaid grounds?

Although this:

but there is nothing specifically in the rules about perm controls having set opening and closing times

would suggest that whilst it might attract disapproval, it would still be permitted (all other criteria being met of course.)

.............. then attempt to finish the ride by going at 30kph (or vice versa)

In my dreams!

[Greenbank]

Here's the way I understand it:-

Start, control at 50km, finish at 100km will be fine.

Start, control at 100km, finish at 200km is unlikely to be agreed by the DIY organiser without there being a pretty good reason why you can't add any extra controls.

100km between controls isn't out of the ordinary on longer rides though, the Severn Across has a 100km leg between Chepstow and Membury Services (Malmesbury isn't an official control but most stop there anyway).

I've done Gamlingay to Bourne on a DIY which is a shade under 90km.

If you've got a GPS you could take advantage of the proof-of-passage by GPS trial and you wouldn't have to stop for any of your nominated controls...

[mattc]

a 600+100 seems a bit pointless to me and not exactly what ECE's were set up for; but as long as John Ward is willing to create an event on the website for every possible permutation I suppose it's OK. The initial idea was just to create combined distances of those used for an SR but we've already had entries for longer than this.

If this translates into:"the ECE concept is encouraging people to ride longer distances", as a "long distance cycling" organisation this equals a good thing, yes?

I suppose in a way this could meet both goals. Someone might ride a 600 that is some distance away as a 600+100 ECE, whereas simply riding to the start might not have appealed. Hence 600 bagged, SR bagged, a bonus point for the rider - everyone's happy!

[PloddinPedro]

Start, control at 100km, finish at 200km is unlikely to be agreed by the DIY organiser without there being a pretty good reason why you can't add any extra controls. ....

100km between controls isn't out of the ordinary on longer rides though

Well quite, that's sort of my point. If I'm supposed to be self-reliant, I might be trusted to be left to my own devices for 100+k if same is deemed OK on calendar rides. But I'm not kicking up about it because if I can take a break at 60 or 70k I usually do. It's just that I'm lazy and not having to faff about organising till receipts every five minutes would be a bonus.

If you've got a GPS you could take advantage of the proof-of-passage by GPS trial and you wouldn't have to stop for any of your nominated controls...

Absolutely, and it can't come soon enough for me; the only nagging doubt is that it's not yet clear whether all validators will adopt the new technology straight away.

[Greenbank]

the only nagging doubt is that it's not yet clear whether all validators will adopt the new technology straight away.

I don't think that'll be a problem.

If all of the regional DIY organisers don't take it on (and I can imagine not all of them being able to) then it'll be managed within the people who can do it. It wouldn't be fair if one or two regions weren't able to use it.

I think it'll start like the ECE events with a single organiser and if the workload increases for it to be too much for a single person then other volunteers can be drafted in.

Not everyone will be in a position to move to GPS based validation for a start.

[Martin]

This raises another question (sorry Martin!) that has occurred to me. When composing DIYs, I quite like to keep the number of controls to a minimum. A perfect arrangement would be: Start -> one control -> Finish.

There is a general requirement that controls should be maximum approx 70km apart; these should also ideally involve some sort of refreshment. It's part of AIUI the duty of care that AUK has for riders doing events of any sort under its auspices.

[Stephen Kirkby]

So, who's going to be first to join two calendar events together?
eg
8am Sat Ugley : "Up The Uts"
                        : DIY extension Perm 200k, Ugley to Great Kingshill
8am Sun     GK : "Chiltern Cotswold Brevet"

600k and 6 points for the weekend.

PS Bagsy NOT me.

[Greenbank]

So, who's going to be first to join two calendar events together?

I don't think it's possible with the current system, it'd have to be done using the old DIY system...

I think it was jwo who suggested a 600 of:-

Saturday 6am: The Dean 300
100km from Oxford to Stevenage via Milton Keynes
Sunday 8.15am: Start of Summertime 200

[MSeries]

So, who's going to be first to join two calendar events together?

I don't think it's possible with the current system, it'd have to be done using the old DIY system...

Is there a new DIY system ? DIY+Cal is defunct. We still have DIY perms.

[MSeries]

So, who's going to be first to join two calendar events together?

I don't think it's possible with the current system, it'd have to be done using the old DIY system...

I think it was jwo who suggested a 600 of:-

Saturday 6am: The Dean 300
100km from Oxford to Stevenage via Milton Keynes
Sunday 8.15am: Start of Summertime 200

Wouldn't that be an ECE for Dean + ride to Stevenage. Then the Start of Summertime ? Why would you want to make it one event. Two event makes it 6 points and you get all the AAA poitns still.

[Martin]

So, who's going to be first to join two calendar events together?

you can't, sorry. You can still ECE one and ride the other anyway but there is no way of combining them on the card or in the results page. You will get the same number of points but not the extended time allowance if over 700 for the 3 bits.

and to answer another query; you may not extend the time on the calendar event as that event is worth calendar points; apart from which it will cause extra work for the organiser who already has enough to do and probably wants to arrive / depart on time.

and there are no longer such things as DIY+Cals; only DIY's. Up to you the regional sec and the organiser if you want to do one like that, but it would be frowned on as it's undoing the benefits of ECE's.

[Greenbank]

So, who's going to be first to join two calendar events together?

I don't think it's possible with the current system, it'd have to be done using the old DIY system...

Is there a new DIY system ? DIY+Cal is defunct. We still have DIY perms.

The vast majority of DIY+Cal rides may be defunct thanks to ECE, but ECE specifically doesn't cater for multiple calendar events.

Nothing has changed with the old DIY Perm system so there's no reason why it couldn't be used to do this using the two calendar event Brevet cards as proof of those distances cycled, along with appropriate other receipts, as long as I get the agreement of all involved (both Calendar organisers and the DIY organiser).

To put it another way: I could have done it before, so why can't I do it now? For rare cases like this there's no need to modify the infrastructure of the ECE rides, just deal with these odd/rare cases using the original DIY method. The only thing you miss out on is AAA points, if they're more important to you then you need to think of a different way of doing it all.

If Calendar+DIY+Calendar really takes off and lots of people want to do it (I very much doubt) then think about extending the ECE system, but I really think it'll be unnecessary.

Wouldn't that be an ECE for Dean + ride to Stevenage. Then the Start of Summertime ? Why would you want to make it one event. Two event makes it 6 points and you get all the AAA poitns still.

Separate rides won't count as a 600km ride for an SR, that's why. There are no AAA points on either.

It's also more audacious to do it as one all-or-nothing 600km ride rather than being able to bank the 400km ride and then bail on the 200km ride because you're not enjoying it.

[Martin]

GB; I fully understand your reasoning; and as you say if you could do it before why can't you now? but DIY+Cals were always (according to AUK) a non-ideal solution which, apart from the anomalies they brought to the calendar event, caused extra work for the regional orgs, one of the reasons ECE's came about.

A request to make up an event from two would have to be made to the regional sec and the organisers; there is no way it can be done by the ECE system as the ECE is tied to one event, and I have no control over the validation of the married calendar event.

[mattc]

If Calendar+DIY+Calendar really takes off and lots of people want to do it (I very much doubt) then think about extending the ECE system, but I really think it'll be unnecessary.

I know you can't tell just by looking at the results lists, but do we know if anyone has ever done this?

[mattc]

100km before the BCM was what I was thinking. If you knock off the 100km ride to Chepstow in 5 hours you get 6 hours sleep (and 1 hour to faff in the morning before the BCM).

50km either side of the BCM doesn't give anything useful.

Inspired by this idea ... I've just twigged that the BCM is 619km, which is recognised in an ECE. So will the following work:

Enter 600+100 ECE, then
- sleep in proper bed Chepstow/Aust
- 0600 Ride BCM (619k)
- 2200 Sunday finish -> proper bed @Chepstow/Aust
- 0400 Get up after 6hrs* sleep/eating/chatting/faffing
- Ride 81km in 6hrs to control town near home (thus pushing limit of allowed control distance)
- control/finish/eat at 1000 Monday (when cafes will be open again).
- crawl remaining few miles home to sofa.
?

*If finish BCM late, I'll still get 3-4hrs sleep. Just enough!

I'm not capable of a proper working day after the BCM, so I may as well ride home.

[MSeries]

I'll be interested to know if it does work, 81km != 100km and the 100 E in 600 + 100 ECE is the 100km extension and you only ride 81 !

[Martin]

mattc, no;

you have to add an exact number of 100 /50s to a calendar event. The BCM counts for 600; I know it may well be 619 shortest distance between controls but we have to apply uniformity across all events as I do not have access to the control points on any calendar events (unless I enter them)

must get an ECE FAQ on the AUK website... keep 'em coming 

[mattc]

Thanks Martin(s).

(I don't know where I got the idea that the "official" distance was claimable - must be confusing it with the DIY system.)

I'll look at finding a 650km control, but it makes the timings much less appealing.

[Martin]

you can ride 50 either side of it; or 100 before or after; doesn't matter which, it's only worth another point but happy to oblige if it helps the ride  

the "extra" kms on the calendar event issue came about because I'm aware (as an organiser) just how easy it is to shave chunks of distance off if one is determined; no matter how much it detracts from the proper route and takes riders off suitable roads, especially on 100km events. Presumably in the old days it didn't matter because it was only a 100 and never going to be worth points but AIUI the regional orgs are methodically going through all these long established events to make sure they pass the minimum distance.

If someone is determined to get round eg a 120km event in 100 by taking every shortcut possible that's up to them but they should not be allowed to add another 80 to it to make a "200"

(I don't know where I got the idea that the "official" distance was claimable - must be confusing it with the DIY system.)

I'm not sure either; under the old DIY+Cal system I tried to add 94km to a 106 calendar event but was told that the calendar event was only 100 by controls so had to add another 6 to the DIY bit.

[Greenbank]

You shouldn't be able to claim 619km for the BCM.

Just looking at the last bit from Monmouth (well, part way up the A466 towards Llancloudy) to the finish is 28.3km along the A466.

It's 26.2km by the most direct route (B4293 and then off via Parkhouse joining the A466 at St Arvans). Considerably hillier though

The more obvious sign is that the scenic route (which shares the same main controls as the 2004 route but has extra info controls to drag you up some more hills) is 3km shorter at 616km.

I've always only considered a xYY km event to be 'worth' x00km for DIY+Cal purposes.

[mattc]

Could I just point out that 3 posts telling me why my idea was stupid is plenty?

[Cue Groundhog Day style avalanche of "humorous" posts ... ]