Author Topic: Electric cars in bus lanes?  (Read 5896 times)

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2019, 04:42:38 pm »
For us who live in tiny flats in the city, once electric cars come in that are self driving, everyone will give up uber/mini cabs and switch to whatever version of car sharing (zip etc) is available then*.  All the cars that are currently parked on my street are a wasted resource. Cars on my street might move for 2 hrs a week. The rest of the time they're just sat there. Car sharing and driverless cars will change things, and it's coming.

*Thinking about it, car deodorising and self cleaning car interiors will be when everyone will make the switch to driverless car share schemes.
Driverless cars are just around the corner. Just like fusion power. :P

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2019, 04:45:25 pm »
Quote
An EV in theory has a lot longer life before it wears out, meaning that manufacturers don't have the expected obsolescence keeping their business going.

And this is entirely subjective. Car manufacturers stick 7 year or longer warranty on cars and life them for 100,000 miles yet and see my post above I am capable of operating a 2003 Peugeot with 145,000 miles on the clock. It had some suspension repairs and the brakes replaced this year and there are some interesting electrical 'features' but it's not worn out.

A more extreme example, I have a 1976 MGBGT with unknown miles on it (it's been round the clock once in my ownership but may have done so before then). It's got a different engine and most of the other parts have been replaced but the bodyshell is the same one. The engine was second hand and that went in some time in the 90s. I don't consider any of my car worn out and it's been very reliable. If it does have a fault I am also capable of fixing it.

Parts wear out, cars don't. The aftermarket upsell of servicing and later on the additional warranties based on the human reliance of a car is a major part of the whole problem.

The expected obsolesence is entirely down to the car manufacturers wanting us to replace the car every three years. Get rid of that idiotic mindset and it's a big hurdle. It's like people expect the car to disintegrate on the way to it's first MOT.
Duct tape is magic and should be worshipped

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2019, 04:50:41 pm »
How much aluminium do you think is in your average car engine? Where do you think that comes from?
Dug outta da ground by reggae-loving, cricket-mad, spliffed-up Rastas.  :D
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2019, 05:35:53 pm »
Quote
An EV in theory has a lot longer life before it wears out, meaning that manufacturers don't have the expected obsolescence keeping their business going.

And this is entirely subjective. Car manufacturers stick 7 year or longer warranty on cars and life them for 100,000 miles yet and see my post above I am capable of operating a 2003 Peugeot with 145,000 miles on the clock. It had some suspension repairs and the brakes replaced this year and there are some interesting electrical 'features' but it's not worn out.

A more extreme example, I have a 1976 MGBGT with unknown miles on it (it's been round the clock once in my ownership but may have done so before then). It's got a different engine and most of the other parts have been replaced but the bodyshell is the same one. The engine was second hand and that went in some time in the 90s. I don't consider any of my car worn out and it's been very reliable. If it does have a fault I am also capable of fixing it.

Parts wear out, cars don't. The aftermarket upsell of servicing and later on the additional warranties based on the human reliance of a car is a major part of the whole problem.

The expected obsolesence is entirely down to the car manufacturers wanting us to replace the car every three years. Get rid of that idiotic mindset and it's a big hurdle. It's like people expect the car to disintegrate on the way to it's first MOT.

It is subjective. But for most motorists they get to the point where the amount of work required to fix the car is more than the car is worth, because the engine is so expensive etc...

How this changes when it's a case of swap the battery rather than swap the engine, will be an interesting one...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2019, 05:36:12 pm »
[²] It's actually a big problem when it comes to discussing things like nuclear waste. People say a nuclear plant is generating lots of waste, you can even find numbers like a 1GW nuclear plant will generate 27t of waste in a year. But if you ask people to visualise that, it's about 52l, or about the same as your Kitchen bin.

Are you sure those figures are correct?

27 metric tons of water would be roughly 27,000 litres.

If 27t (assuming metric tons) of waste is only 52 liters then nuclear waste is 519 times more dense than water?

Depleted uranium is only ~19 times as dense as water.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2019, 05:50:46 pm »

Are you sure those figures are correct?

27 metric tons of water would be roughly 27,000 litres.

If 27t (assuming metric tons) of waste is only 52 liters then nuclear waste is 519 times more dense than water?

Depleted uranium is only ~19 times as dense as water.

Oh bollocks. Decimal point issue.

515.7l not ~52l. Factor 10 out.

Thanks for spotting that.

So ten weeks of emptying the kitchen bin, not 1 week.

It's a cube 802mm on each side. As opposed to a cube of 372mm on each side.

Apparently the average wheelie bin is 240l, so it's a little over 2 wheelie bins worth...

Still not a lot when you think about it. Esp as it's enough to drive a nissan leaf approximately 4,716,981,132km, or to the sun and back almost 16 times...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

ian

  • feat. Undead Jess & Finestre, Queen of Hell
Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #56 on: October 24, 2019, 11:17:06 am »
Nuclear waste isn't a one-ness though, that's high-level waste, the end-product of fission and reprocessing. Long half-life daughter nuclides. There's lots of other stuff, low-and-mid level for instance which can anything from a pair of gloves to filing cabinets. Anything that's been potentially contaminated with radioactive materials generally falls into this category, even if it's sub-kBq and short half-life like 32-P (which is better stored for a couple of months and then disposed of in a normal bin). That kind of stuff could and should be better categorized. There's also big stuff, reactor vessel walls etc. which are generally very radioactive and difficult to manage. I do often see it stated that the fabled fusion doesn't produce radioactive waste, which isn't really true, since most forms of fusion will kick out high eV neutrons into the reactor walls and other equipment (only 3-He fusion won't, but that has a massive Coulomb barrier to clamber over, far, far higher than our current tentative attempts with 2-H and 4-He).

Anyway, we're a ways away from fusion-powered cars, that's right back to the future. But anyway, a society with fewer cars would be better in my opinion, and electric cars simple perpetuate the unsatisfactory current situation (no one seems able to state any genuine benefits to our current dependency on cars), as would nuclear-powered cars. Admittedly nuclear-powered cars would be cooler, if not literally.
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quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #57 on: October 24, 2019, 11:30:57 am »
Nuclear waste isn't a one-ness though, that's high-level waste, the end-product of fission and reprocessing. Long half-life daughter nuclides. There's lots of other stuff, low-and-mid level for instance which can anything from a pair of gloves to filing cabinets. Anything that's been potentially contaminated with radioactive materials generally falls into this category, even if it's sub-kBq and short half-life like 32-P (which is better stored for a couple of months and then disposed of in a normal bin). That kind of stuff could and should be better categorized. There's also big stuff, reactor vessel walls etc. which are generally very radioactive and difficult to manage. I do often see it stated that the fabled fusion doesn't produce radioactive waste, which isn't really true, since most forms of fusion will kick out high eV neutrons into the reactor walls and other equipment (only 3-He fusion won't, but that has a massive Coulomb barrier to clamber over, far, far higher than our current tentative attempts with 2-H and 4-He).

Anyway, we're a ways away from fusion-powered cars, that's right back to the future. But anyway, a society with fewer cars would be better in my opinion, and electric cars simple perpetuate the unsatisfactory current situation (no one seems able to state any genuine benefits to our current dependency on cars), as would nuclear-powered cars. Admittedly nuclear-powered cars would be cooler, if not literally.

Interesting.

Do you have any data on the volumes of the above? I only seem to be able to find info on the actual fuel side of things.

Which of course ignores reprocessing, I've seen figures ([citation needed]) suggesting that 97% of the fuel can be recycled and thus reused. Meaning of the 27t, only 810kg would need to be stored, which is 15.5l in volume (a large waste paper bin under an office desk). But I don't have any data on how this is done, how often it is done, etc...

Fusion powered cars do exist, they are just rather inefficient (if you include the full cycle including the fusion bit, tho they tend to be very efficient in most other respects)... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_car_racing#World_Solar_Challenge)

J
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Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

ian

  • feat. Undead Jess & Finestre, Queen of Hell
Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2019, 12:01:52 pm »
There's an interesting article which answers those questions here.

Radioactivity is difficult, since there's a wide range of decay modes and outcomes. Many isotopes of uranium, for instance, while having long half-lives, are primarily modest alpha sources (as such, wrapping them in aluminium foil will render them innocent). The isotopes I used to work with were generally weak and primary beta-emitters, so a couple of millimeters of perspex was sufficient protection, but they were biologically labile and you generally don't want a highish energy beta source, even with a short half-life, in your DNA. So biological activity has to be considered. 131-I, for instance, is very dangerous because it concentrates in the thyroid and is reasonably energetic (mostly beta and modest amounts of gamma, but the half-life is only 8 days, which is why it can be competitively displaced with a course of iodine tablets).

Comparatively, nuclear energy produces less waste than, for instance, coal-fired power stations, by at least an order of magnitude and much of the radioactive waste is ironically less radioactive than the ash from those power stations, but of course, we have a unique relationship with nuclear power and radioactive waste.
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Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2019, 12:22:18 pm »
Meaning of the 27t, only 810kg would need to be stored, which is 15.5l in volume (a large waste paper bin under an office desk). But I don't have any data on how this is done, how often it is done, etc...

I think your figures are still out although only by a factor of 2 and a bit. The densest material on Earth is Osmium at 22g per cubic centimetre (i.e. 22kg per litre).

You're quoting a density of 810kg / 15.5 = 52.26 (2dp) kg/L which is more than twice this.

Depleted uranium has a density of about 19. So 810kg of that would be ~42L, so we're still talking about a bin but just a bit larger.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

ian

  • feat. Undead Jess & Finestre, Queen of Hell
Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2019, 12:46:48 pm »
According to the IAEA in 2018, there's 22,000 m3 of high-level waste in storage (there's actually no sense in immediate disposal, it has to be cooled, and 99% of the radioactivity will have decayed in under a century, high energy isotopes generally have short half-lives, for obvious reasons). That's about 10ish Olympic swimming pools. Bigger than my office bin, anyway, but compared to other industries, very little.
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Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #61 on: October 24, 2019, 12:50:04 pm »
This news article is quite relevant
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50167812

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #62 on: October 24, 2019, 01:22:20 pm »

I think your figures are still out although only by a factor of 2 and a bit. The densest material on Earth is Osmium at 22g per cubic centimetre (i.e. 22kg per litre).

You're quoting a density of 810kg / 15.5 = 52.26 (2dp) kg/L which is more than twice this.

Depleted uranium has a density of about 19. So 810kg of that would be ~42L, so we're still talking about a bin but just a bit larger.

I did:
!calc 27000*0.03
810.0
!calc 810*0.0191
15.470999999999998

I've had very little sleep and am juggling too many things so my numbers may be well off. I would like to have correct numbers.

J

--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2019, 01:29:32 pm »
Units of mass = kg
Units of density = mass/volume = kg/L

If you multiply mass by density you get mass^2 / volume.

You need to divide mass by density to get volume.

810kg
Density is 19.1 kg/L

To get L you need to do 810 kg / 19.1 kg/L = 42.4 L (1dp).

[EDIT] Multipliying by 0.0191 is the same as dividing by 52.36 (2dp). For a density of 19.1kg/L you need to multiply by 0.052 (2dp).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #64 on: October 24, 2019, 01:36:11 pm »
Some interesting information there, but to bring the issue back to everyday life. I'd be interested to know what effect electric cars are going to have on the numbers of vehicles on the road. If they really are incredibly cheap to run, won't people be tempted to use them more resulting in even busier roads? Also, when I drive I use a very light right foot to maximise fuel economy. If the range issue is sorted then what?.. pedal to the metal?

The fact is, if we really wanted to maximise economy and/or reduce CO2 emissions there's been loads of things that could have been done. That they haven't is down to people's desire for comfort, self esteem, convenience etc etc. These 'drivers' are not going to change.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2019, 03:46:13 pm »
This news article is quite relevant
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50167812
Braking seems to be the hardest skill for them. But then we're not told they actually have brakes.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #66 on: October 24, 2019, 03:47:23 pm »
Some interesting information there, but to bring the issue back to everyday life. I'd be interested to know what effect electric cars are going to have on the numbers of vehicles on the road. If they really are incredibly cheap to run, won't people be tempted to use them more resulting in even busier roads? Also, when I drive I use a very light right foot to maximise fuel economy. If the range issue is sorted then what?.. pedal to the metal?

The fact is, if we really wanted to maximise economy and/or reduce CO2 emissions there's been loads of things that could have been done. That they haven't is down to people's desire for comfort, self esteem, convenience etc etc. These 'drivers' are not going to change.
Pretty much a certainty, I'd say. (And autonomous vehicles even more, but they're still some way off.)
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #67 on: October 24, 2019, 03:57:03 pm »
Rebound effect - energy efficiency leads to more usage, offsetting the benefit.

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #68 on: October 24, 2019, 04:34:01 pm »
There is also the question of true efficiency.  Electric motors are very efficient at turning electricity into circular motion, but is the power station significantly more efficient than a car engine when burning fuel?

What about when it is cold and you need to heat the car? An internal combustion engine is a convenient source of free heat, replace that with an electric motor and you may now need a heater if using the car in a uk winter.

Eddington  96miles

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #69 on: October 24, 2019, 04:51:33 pm »
There is also the question of true efficiency.  Electric motors are very efficient at turning electricity into circular motion, but is the power station significantly more efficient than a car engine when burning fuel?

What about when it is cold and you need to heat the car? An internal combustion engine is a convenient source of free heat, replace that with an electric motor and you may now need a heater if using the car in a uk winter.

The efficiency of an electric motor in a car is around 95-97% under typical loads. A Diesel car manages peak efficiency around 40%. The efficiency of a combined cycle gas turbine power station is around 65%. It’s burning a fuel (methane) with a much lower carbon content than Diesel.

The true carbon dioxide impact of a diesel car is typically 111g/km or more, due to combination of exhaust  CO2 emissions and the oil extraction and refinery process (golf diesel; source: Volkswagen).

For electricity sourced from gas it’s 490 gCO2eq/kWh (Source: IPCC 2014)

I’m currently getting around 4 miles/kWh in EV mode. 490/4/1.6 => 76.5g/km

When I charged overnight the grid was running at about 227g/kWh. => ~35g/km. 3x win for EV vs Diesel

Heating a car by running the engine is extremely wasteful. Using an air source heat pump is far more efficient.

Edit: picked wrong figure for Diesel golf.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #70 on: October 24, 2019, 06:11:43 pm »
Heating a car by running the engine is extremely wasteful.

Not to mention inconvenient.  Any hybrid or reasonably efficient diesel does a terrible job at providing heat in a timely manner, which leads to further waste as people sit around with the engine idling waiting for the windscreen to demist.

At least a heat-pump starts to work immediately, even if you don't set it to pre-heat the car by remote control or timer.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #71 on: October 25, 2019, 10:51:53 am »
We have had a Nissan Leaf for about 4 years.

Driving in a bus lane, simply NO. The bus lane should be used for buses and to encourage more, quicker, cheaper public transport.

Green number plates, no. Spend any of that money on improving the EV car charging infrastructure to encourage more people out of their diesels and petrol cars.
Regards

Denis

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #72 on: October 25, 2019, 12:57:44 pm »
There is also the question of true efficiency.  Electric motors are very efficient at turning electricity into circular motion, but is the power station significantly more efficient than a car engine when burning fuel?

What about when it is cold and you need to heat the car? An internal combustion engine is a convenient source of free heat, replace that with an electric motor and you may now need a heater if using the car in a uk winter.

The efficiency of an electric motor in a car is around 95-97% under typical loads. A Diesel car manages peak efficiency around 40%. The efficiency of a combined cycle gas turbine power station is around 65%. It’s burning a fuel (methane) with a much lower carbon content than Diesel.

The true carbon dioxide impact of a diesel car is typically 111g/km or more, due to combination of exhaust  CO2 emissions and the oil extraction and refinery process (golf diesel; source: Volkswagen).

For electricity sourced from gas it’s 490 gCO2eq/kWh (Source: IPCC 2014)

I’m currently getting around 4 miles/kWh in EV mode. 490/4/1.6 => 76.5g/km

When I charged overnight the grid was running at about 227g/kWh. => ~35g/km. 3x win for EV vs Diesel

Heating a car by running the engine is extremely wasteful. Using an air source heat pump is far more efficient.

Edit: picked wrong figure for Diesel golf.
I'm not running an engine to heat the car, I'm driving normally and waste heat is heating the car. Are you suggesting that the engine works harder when I turn the heating on? I always understood putting the heating on diverted the airflow which the car needs going over the radiator to provide warmth to the occupants.

I have never once left the engine running when idling to warm thr car/clear the windows, just give them a wipe.

Eddington  96miles

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2019, 12:59:35 pm »
Rebound effect - energy efficiency leads to more usage, offsetting the benefit.
So side effects of moving to electric cars could well be: more congestion, less active travel, more danger to vulnerable road users, worsening obesity rates, less space for people (especially for children), increased social isolation.... any others?

Once the bus lanes are full of electric cars (which won't be long), where are all the buses going to go?

I'm glad this has all been thought through by our betters.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #74 on: October 25, 2019, 01:03:25 pm »
Are you suggesting that the engine works harder when I turn the heating on?

Only when you turn on the rear window demister (and similar electrical loads).  The effect is marginal compared to the overhead of simply idling the engine.

This is more true in hybrids, which will run the combustion engine when it wouldn't otherwise purely in order to generate heat/power for the climate control.  In the interests of efficiency they generally try to dump energy into the battery while they're doing it.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...