Author Topic: Sky - gaming the system?  (Read 191803 times)

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1150 on: 05 March, 2018, 11:40:10 pm »
Speed reading I read that as higher steroids.
It is simpler than it looks.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1151 on: 06 March, 2018, 08:52:55 pm »
Quote
The boss of Wiggins’s Team Sky, Sir David Brailsford, became famous the world over for his pursuit of “marginal gains”. For example, during the Tour de France and other races, his riders would have their own, familiar beds bussed ahead of them and set up in whatever hotel they were staying.

Are we meant to be surprised that such a team would exploit the rules to their very maximum capacity? Should the fan feel short-changed by this? That is, almost, a matter of personal taste.
IMO it would have been disappointing if they had not exploited every loophole possible, a contradiction of their ethos. Shame they got caught, I guess, but kind of inevitable at some point.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1152 on: 06 March, 2018, 10:52:20 pm »
Quote
The boss of Wiggins’s Team Sky, Sir David Brailsford, became famous the world over for his pursuit of “marginal gains”. For example, during the Tour de France and other races, his riders would have their own, familiar beds bussed ahead of them and set up in whatever hotel they were staying.

Are we meant to be surprised that such a team would exploit the rules to their very maximum capacity? Should the fan feel short-changed by this? That is, almost, a matter of personal taste.
IMO it would have been disappointing if they had not exploited every loophole possible, a contradiction of their ethos. Shame they got caught, I guess, but kind of inevitable at some point.

The rules are clear. There is no loophole allowing doping with therapeutic drugs under a TUE obtained unnecessarily. That’s not simply unethical, it’s a breach of the rules and cheating.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1153 on: 06 March, 2018, 11:24:16 pm »
According to The Murdoch, Mr Wiggins did a bad tax thing. Was it a bad as that Carr person? Who knows.
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1154 on: 06 March, 2018, 11:37:26 pm »
According to The Murdoch, Mr Wiggins did a bad tax thing. Was it a bad as that Carr person? Who knows.

With friends like that...

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1155 on: 07 March, 2018, 07:36:07 pm »
I'm not convinced you have much of a handle on this matt.

There is a 'system of rules' but as we know from Armstrong's backdated TUE after testing positive, UCI's attempt to bury Contador's clen pozzy, Froome's 'fast-tracked' TUE, Armistead's 3 missed tests and suddenly-reversal-of-automatic-ban-so-that-she-could-ride-the-Olympics,  the enforcement of these rules depends on who you are.
I believe Armstrong n Contador were banned and lost TdeF titles. The system isnt perfect (of course) but it is there. Riders dope, some get caught (what's new?).

Throwing mud at your favourite dodgy rider based on your view of how other riders were treated is at best just gossip. It could be viewed as sour grapes, but I wouldnt like to accuse you of that.

The number of TUEs is dropping rapidly, which some would see as a good thing; or you could just keep slinging mud. Your choice!

How do you feel now Matt?

Pretty silly? :-[

Just to add to your consternation the President of the UCI has been slinging mud too!  :thumbsup:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/43316602

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1156 on: 08 March, 2018, 11:24:47 am »
Continuing to shout I told you so isn't making this process any easier to take Flatus.
Duct tape is magic and should be worshipped

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1157 on: 08 March, 2018, 11:34:38 am »
Allow me a moment of schadenfreude in reminding somebody that their snide and sardonic posts have come back to haunt them. They deserve it   ;)


Beardy

  • Shedist
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1158 on: 08 March, 2018, 11:48:04 am »
It all looks like it is going to come down to medical opinion in the end, with one doctor on the payroll of Sky claiming a medical condition existed and thus a TUE was justified, and another doctor on the payroll of the other side claiming that no medical condition existed and thus the TUE was illegal.

Perhaps the rules need to be changed to allow an drugs you want, but if you die during the race it's instant disqualification form that race. Its probably as sensible solution as anything else anyone is going to come up with and it at least has a chance of being policed fairly.
For every complex problem in the world, there is a simple and easily understood solution that’s wrong.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1159 on: 08 March, 2018, 11:55:58 am »
It all looks like it is going to come down to medical opinion in the end, with one doctor on the payroll of Sky claiming a medical condition existed and thus a TUE was justified, and another doctor on the payroll of the other side claiming that no medical condition existed and thus the TUE was illegal.

Perhaps the rules need to be changed to allow an drugs you want, but if you die during the race it's instant disqualification form that race. Its probably as sensible solution as anything else anyone is going to come up with and it at least has a chance of being policed fairly.

Yes, but the surrounding evidence doesn’t look great. Clearly illegal drugs apparently ordered and delivered as well as a clear statement from the senior coach that TUE’s were manipulated to gain an advantage.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1160 on: 08 March, 2018, 12:18:36 pm »
I'm not convinced you have much of a handle on this matt.

There is a 'system of rules' but as we know from Armstrong's backdated TUE after testing positive, UCI's attempt to bury Contador's clen pozzy, Froome's 'fast-tracked' TUE, Armistead's 3 missed tests and suddenly-reversal-of-automatic-ban-so-that-she-could-ride-the-Olympics,  the enforcement of these rules depends on who you are.
I believe Armstrong n Contador were banned and lost TdeF titles. The system isnt perfect (of course) but it is there. Riders dope, some get caught (what's new?).

Throwing mud at your favourite dodgy rider based on your view of how other riders were treated is at best just gossip. It could be viewed as sour grapes, but I wouldnt like to accuse you of that.

The number of TUEs is dropping rapidly, which some would see as a good thing; or you could just keep slinging mud. Your choice!

How do you feel now Matt?

Pretty silly? :-[

Just to add to your consternation the President of the UCI has been slinging mud too!  :thumbsup:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/43316602

You'll have to explain what part of the above exchange you think makes me feel silly.

As I said: The system isnt perfect (of course) but it is there. Riders dope, some get caught (what's new?).


Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1161 on: 08 March, 2018, 12:22:15 pm »
Quote
Most successful modern sporting nations exhibit key characteristics of the system that allowed East Germany to rack up a string of sporting successes from the late 1960s up until the Seoul Olympics of 1988, a year before the state’s demise.

This is the conclusion of a major new book that is the first English language text that analyses the East German sport system using original Communist Party and STASI sources.

Dr Jonathan Grix (University of Birmingham) and Professor Mike Dennis (University of Wolverhampton) argue that the modern emphasis on state sponsored athletes, the focus on specific sports to maximise a nation’s medal return and the emphasis now placed on talent identification all have their roots in  the East German model.

https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/news/latest/2012/07/27-July-East-German-Sports-Miracle.aspx

The Sky team grew out of the lottery-funded medal-winning machine, so I don't find anything surprising in what's happened. Sport in the UK has become increasingly politicised, and we're seeing a conflict between the desire for results, and the expectation of purity.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1162 on: 08 March, 2018, 12:44:12 pm »
Using the phrase "expectation of purity" suggests you think the roots might go back to a slightly earlier Germany.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1163 on: 08 March, 2018, 02:25:42 pm »
It all looks like it is going to come down to medical opinion in the end, with one doctor on the payroll of Sky claiming a medical condition existed and thus a TUE was justified, and another doctor on the payroll of the other side claiming that no medical condition existed and thus the TUE was illegal.

One possible solution to this quandary would be to take the responsibility for diagnosis out of the hands of any doctors with a vested interest.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1164 on: 08 March, 2018, 04:56:23 pm »
Using the phrase "expectation of purity" suggests you think the roots might go back to a slightly earlier Germany.

I think he means sporting purity, gentlemanly conduct etc, rather than racial purity.

But if we're going back to the 20's, then the concept of training for the Olympics becomes set against the gentlemanly amateur ethos.

Why don't we just have every rider on the same bike, with the same kit, same nutrition, same doctor, and then it is "all about the bike"
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1165 on: 08 March, 2018, 05:05:09 pm »
The extreme view of course is that training is vulgar cheating and we shouldn't forget that many of the 'peds' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrianism) from that bygone era were actually professionals. One used to enjoy a meal of pork chops, mashed potato and gravy washed down with a half pint of sherry at the half way mark of a 24 hour race.


Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1166 on: 08 March, 2018, 07:10:28 pm »
Using the phrase "expectation of purity" suggests you think the roots might go back to a slightly earlier Germany.

I think he means sporting purity, gentlemanly conduct etc, rather than racial purity.

But if we're going back to the 20's, then the concept of training for the Olympics becomes set against the gentlemanly amateur ethos.

Why don't we just have every rider on the same bike, with the same kit, same nutrition, same doctor, and then it is "all about the bike"

Because most of them would fall off, as they're only built for one rider.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1167 on: 08 March, 2018, 07:11:40 pm »
Using the phrase "expectation of purity" suggests you think the roots might go back to a slightly earlier Germany.

I think he means sporting purity, gentlemanly conduct etc, rather than racial purity.

But if we're going back to the 20's, then the concept of training for the Olympics becomes set against the gentlemanly amateur ethos.

Why don't we just have every rider on the same bike, with the same kit, same nutrition, same doctor, and then it is "all about the bike"

Because most of them would fall off, as they're only built for one rider.

:D

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1168 on: 09 March, 2018, 03:17:23 pm »
One possible solution to this quandary would be to take the responsibility for diagnosis out of the hands of any doctors with a vested interest.
I've thought for a while that the solution would be for...
Team doctors to be employed by the UCI, with watching for signs of doping as part of the job description.
Doctors assigned to the teams for a season at a time, getting moved around for different seasons.
Teams & Riders not to employ or pay any other medics.
The UCI to maintain a register of approved non-team medics (knee surgeons, a rider's local GP etc)

The doctors could be paid for by a levy on the teams, as they would be saving on the doctor's wages.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1169 on: 09 March, 2018, 03:42:22 pm »
That might work, but does assume the UCI do not have a vested interest.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1170 on: 09 March, 2018, 03:45:38 pm »
Using the phrase "expectation of purity" suggests you think the roots might go back to a slightly earlier Germany.

I think he means sporting purity, gentlemanly conduct etc, rather than racial purity.
In all probability, but it's never safe to assume which cogs are whirring in ESL's brain when he gets historical.

Quote
But if we're going back to the 20's, then the concept of training for the Olympics becomes set against the gentlemanly amateur ethos.
And against the absence of anti-doping rules. Or in fact laws against recreational drug use (first in UK seem to have been 1916, cocaine and morphine).
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1171 on: 10 March, 2018, 11:13:41 pm »
http://www.bbc.com/sport/wales/43319799

I have always liked G, I hope his words don't come back to haunt him, as seems so frequent where Sky are concerned. I think that in one thing at least he is absolutely right, if you need a TUE to race then you're not fit to race. Still leaves out of race treatments of course.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1172 on: 11 March, 2018, 11:34:41 am »
Thomas came through the T Mobile development programme, along with Cavendish, Clancy and Stannard. Heiko Salzwedel coached that. Heiko's had a varied career, being in charge of the Russian cycling programme at one time.
Quote
The one thing that Salzwedel has always strived for is not to become the East German cliché. His focus is on the athletes, the coaching staff is merely supporting structures.

"I introduced a completely new approach – it was not the East German way, but it was my way," he says of his arrival in Australia now over two decades ago. "I was not typical for East Germany either. On the other hand, I was just thinking logically. East Germany was a very small country; we had to look after our talents. Australia was a very small country with 17 million people then, so we had to nurse the talent. Cycling was virtually non-existent. There was a very good track program but on the road, there was virtually nothing there. The British approach was practically identical, that's why when I went back to Great Britain, and it was a philosophy that I could identify with."

While his past successes prove that his is a formula which works, he still finds himself having to convince some of his Russian colleagues that he is acting in the best interests of the program.

The old systems, while successful, were also stigmatised by the doping methods that were employed during the Russian and East German systems while at the top. But they weren't the whole story.

"When you look back at that successful Russian and East German era, absolutely, there were issues but they didn't make a 10 per cent difference, they made a two or three per cent difference," says Popov. "Some of the bad stuff stayed and that's some of the battle, to get rid of the culture of taking things to make you go faster – it's not things that make you go faster it's the culture that makes you go faster."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/rusvelo-re-building-the-salzwedel-way/

Wiggins cites Salzwedel as the reason he came back for Rio. There's a thread in cycling success  which connects Australia, Denmark, the UK and Russia with the former East Germany. It's a sense of focus on results, which is commendable in many ways. Britain first reaped the results in rowing, some might recall the surprise at Sir Steve Redgrave's asthma.

I think many are offended that there are athletes with talent and flair, being deprived of their just desserts by dedicated sloggers, backed by morally-dubious science. Within that conflict there are a series of ideas which we used see to articulated in children's comics, witness 'Wilson of the Wizard'. The Brit was the 'plucky amateur' facing well-drilled, state-backed, machine-athletes. But around 1990, we all became East Germany.

Cycling had its last 'Wilson of the Wizard' fling with Graeme Obree, Boardman was seen as calculating. Cavendish is the great outlier, as sprinting requires a talent that can't be developed in the lab.

Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1173 on: 11 March, 2018, 04:08:52 pm »
Team Sky won an overall title today and moved to lead Paree-knee. Bet that will go down well!

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1174 on: 11 March, 2018, 05:47:23 pm »
Team Sky won an overall title today and moved to lead Paree-knee. Bet that will go down well!
They won the final stage, not the overall general classification. ;)